Two Plus Two Older Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Older Archives > PL/NL Texas Hold'em > Small Stakes Pot-, No-Limit Hold'em

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-23-2005, 11:16 AM
Hans Gruber Hans Gruber is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 8
Default Flopping nut straight with a flush draw on the board

This is from a hand that I played last week on .50/1 NL on PokerStars. It's a hand I've discussed with some friends over the last week, and I wanted to get everyone's take on it. Sorry I don't have the hand history.

I was on the button with Qh9h, and I decided to see a flop, as 4 people limped in before me. I had $75 in my stack. The SB completed, and the BB checked. 7 to the flop.

Flop comes: 8d 10s Js

So, I flopped the nut straight, but there is a spade draw out there. UTG ($80) bets $5 into a $7 pot, and a player in MP ($180) calls the $5. Folds around to me. What do you do?

I put the MP guy (caller) on a flush draw, so my first instinct was to make him pay for his flush. Since the first guy made a healthy bet, I put him on a decent hand, like TPTK or two pair.

Option 1: Make a huge raise, perhaps all-in.
Option 2: Call, and if a spade hits the turn, trust my read and get out. If a non-spade hits, and if the board doesn't pair, then crank up the betting on the turn, perhaps pushing all-in.

I decided to push all-in, which I figure to be a pretty standard play. Thoughts? How feasible is option 2?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-23-2005, 11:26 AM
xorbie xorbie is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,828
Default Re: Flopping nut straight with a flush draw on the board

Interesting. I recently had a hand where I was holding JQo and flop cam 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

I pushed on the flop and got one caller, with 77 (one was 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]). He hit the 6 of [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on the river.

I think one of the problems with pushing here is that you lose all your money if they hit on either street, even if they do call you with somewhat less than proper oddss. Thus pushing is +EV if you can insure incorrect odds for everyone else. However, I think that the best move might be just to raise 2/3 pot here (so raise to $17). This shows strength, and might even fold out a lower flush draw. Then I would see what happens if a spade falls, depending on who calls.

The real problem here is that facing two people, you don't know what turn cards you should slow down on. If the board pairs, another spade comes, any 9, any Q, you might now be beat. Tough call. However, if none of these falls, I say just push the turn, unless you've pushed the flop.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-23-2005, 12:04 PM
TonyG86 TonyG86 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 12
Default Re: Flopping nut straight with a flush draw on the board

I also think there shouldve been a 3rd option here, if i was in your situation i wouldve made it something like 19-22 then be able to push the turn unless a scare card comes in which case youd be able to see how it plays out.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-23-2005, 12:25 PM
Siawyn Siawyn is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Akron, Ohio
Posts: 91
Default Re: Flopping nut straight with a flush draw on the board

Hi,

Although I agree with the others that raising the pot is an option that should be considered and usually is a better play there, occasionally you need to be pushing with the nuts as well. Someone with a big draw here may be calling anyways, or someone may have top 2 and think YOU are on the draw and trying to buy it.

Since you have position here, a raise to $20 or so would be good. Push on a blank turn.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-23-2005, 12:29 PM
Spekkio Spekkio is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 30
Default Re: Flopping nut straight with a flush draw on the board

In my experience, people have problems reading the board for straights.

The good part of that is you get paid off for getting them.

The bad news is the guy on a flush draw or with tptk will think you are bluffing.

In other words, if you go all-in, expect at least one caller.

If you bet big, they may stop to believe you for a second. Then go all-in on the turn (most people on draws give up on the turn anyway).

You definitely do NOT wanna call, because that completes giving the flush draw his odds to stay in the hand.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-23-2005, 12:34 PM
Ghazban Ghazban is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 1
Default Re: Flopping nut straight with a flush draw on the board

[ QUOTE ]
The bad news is the guy on a flush draw or with tptk will think you are bluffing.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is this bad news?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-23-2005, 01:02 PM
Los Feliz Slim Los Feliz Slim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 577
Default Re: Flopping nut straight with a flush draw on the board

IMO, It depends on what you know about the other two players. Are they calling a push with a flush draw or a set or even 2 pair? Then push. I agree that somebody's going to put you on a bluff and probably call with an inferior hand, which is the name of the game and why I say push all the way. If you think that large a bet will knock them off their draws, then raise the pot.

Maybe I overthink these things, but it's at least possible that they BOTH have flush draws (or the one who doesn't have four to a flush has TPTK w/nut flush draw), in which case their odds get worse.

If I think there's going to be a caller, I always like to get all my money in with the best hand.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-23-2005, 01:53 PM
Hans Gruber Hans Gruber is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 8
Default Re: Flopping nut straight with a flush draw on the board

Thanks for the input so far on this. I should have separated option 1 out into 2 parts, instead of saying make a big raise, perhaps even all-in. Option 3 for sure is to make a healthy raise that doesn't pot commit me.

What I do like about the all-in is that I'm getting all my money in with the nuts, and I don't think that can ever be considered a terrible poker play. Furthermore, all-ins can often be interpreted by others as weakness, that I might be just trying to steal the pot. People might be more inclined to call the all-in with an already-made hand like 2 pair or a set.

The more I think about this, I think a healthy raise would have been better, in which case I don't get so pot committed if a spade hits. If a spade misses and the board doesn't pair, I can then push, and if anyone calls my push with a flush draw, it certainly works out as +EV for me.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-23-2005, 05:12 PM
Hans Gruber Hans Gruber is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 8
Default Results

After I pushed all-in, UTG pondered for a while, and he pushed all-in for his last ~$75. Then the MP sat and pondered for a while, and he called. The turn was a 2d, and the river was a 3s.

UTG showed 8d8h for a set
MP showed As5s for a flush
I mucked my straight, MP took down the $230 pot.

So, in hindsight I wonder what a pot-sized raise would have done. I now believe that was the correct play. But if the UTG with the set reraised all-in, I wonder what MP would have done with his flush draw. But if UTG just called my pot-sized raise, and the flush draw called, would MP have folded his draw on the turn with a big bet by either me or UTG?

Once both the UTG and I were all-in, MP was getting 2:1 on a flush draw with two cards to come, which is good enough to call the all-ins.

Tough hand for me, but I think there was at least a chance that I could have won the pot if I hadn't pushed...
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.