decline in play after learning alot?

[Shaman]

Aikido expert George Leonard, in his book "Mastery", calls it the "plateau period". According to him, the masters embrace and even enjoy this period while most drop out by getting bored or by burning out.

[Dan Mezick]

Annie,

I have a style question.

Background: When I make a change to my game, it is typically a "style tweak". My style is MY style, derived from and designed around my current understanding of my personality. My goal in style definition is to make my game as effortless as possible and thereby, make my plays of the highest quality possible.

Question: In your opinion, how much of success in tournament poker comes from this ongoing process of personalized style definition? Does personalized style definition contribute to the ability to focus on essential poker tasks for long periods of elapsed tournament time?

I'm very interested what you think about this concept.

I've addressed the idea more completely in the following brief essay:

Playing Style and Tournament Success

[chipbrave]

I appreciate everyone's input. I'm glad to see that I'm not alone. I have been taking some time off, and will be probably not playing again until the Borgata Poker Open where I have already qualified for some of the tourns. Hopefully things will fall into place then, when i get back to the felt.

[adamstewart]

Chipbrave,

This is an amazing post. Like the others who have already responded, I've been going through a plateau/losing streak for the last few months. Further, this streak seemed to begin at the same time as I read Theory of Poker and HFAP.

I may just be on a rush now, but I feel like I'm finally breaking out of it (and my bankroll is finally progressing again).

Glad to see I'm not alone either....

[Noo Yawk]

I think this is a common occurrence in all things you learn. Once you get past a certain point, you need to unlearn many things to make room for adjustments and more sophisticated levels of thinking. This is often the result of you now thinking on a macro level, as opposed to the micro only level you were thinking at before. This generally happens as you are moving past the intermediate and advanced levels. The truly great part is that once you understand this, you realize that there is so much more to learn than you ever thought possible, and you'll have a much better understanding of where you stand as compared to the truly great ones in whatever field you are learning.

Wynton Marsalis said that once he got to this point, he wanted to throw his trumpet in the fire after re-listening to Miles Davis and realizing how much more schooling he needed.

I found this to be true in Music, Business and sports as well as poker.

[Fiery Jack]

Thank you for writing this, its reassuring to know this is common.

I have built a decent bankroll by playing $1/$2 tables with steady progress but since reaching my $1K milestone a month ago have only been breaking even; not sure whether its overconfidence.

Ironically I only read Theory Of Poker a month ago [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img].

[SpeakEasy]

Anyone have this problem?

I’ve been studying and playing a lot in the last 12-18 months, like a lot of you posting on these boards. More online practice in the evening after the kids are in bed, and a few more visits (about monthly) to the local poker room at the 15-30 and no-limit games.

I’m kickin’ ass at the live games with consistent and very profitable sessions, but I suddenly SUCK at online play. Online, I suddenly can’t money in a SNG to save my life, and I completely flounder along in online cash games. I need to see the players and read their tells to get an idea of hand strength. Online, it feels like I’m betting in a complete void -- I have no idea who these people are, how they play, if they're nervous, what they do when they bluff, and I can’t see them to get any clue about their play. I’ve suddenly realized that I need to SEE the people I’m playing with to play effectively. Just a quick look at a person gives me a lot of potential clues to how they might play (old or young, neat or messy, quiet or talkative, drunk or sober, nervous or calm, eye contact -- these simple characteristics give me LOTS of information).

Its as if live play is crippling my ability to play online. This is probably a good thing in the long run, because (in my view) poker is made for people sitting at a table, not at a computer. Maybe this is a signal that a player is ready for the "next step" in live games. This make practice on the computer very frustrating. But you can get in so many hands in a short time online, its such a valuable practice tool. Unfortunately, I can't get to the poker room all that often, with a job, family, etc.

[Louie Landale]

Yes. Lots of this is easily explained by the very large fluctuation in the game. Some of the top pros MAY never have had a losing month, but I doubt it.

More likely is that the players play differently, even at one level higher than you are used to. Also, these more experienced players can and often do have a pretty good idea what YOU have and can adjust, even if they don't play particularly well.

Here's an example. You are used to playing against folks who never raise bluff on the river, so you often bet-fold on the river and save a lot of money. But the next level there are folks who notice that you fold and WILL take a shot at YOU once in a while. Now you are losing one pot per night that you shouldn't. That enough to turn a nice win into a bad loss.

Now that your confidence is shattered you should move back down. Doesn't matter why its shattered; doesn't matter if its for supersticious reasons or anything. It is shattered, so deal with it.

- Louie

[Rezvani]

Dan,

I took a look at your "player styles" article, and I think its a good article. Your website is also excellent. I especially like your Zen references. I have an idea why you may not be doing as well at the table as you would like-- and I think I can explain it in Zen terms.

I think you would agree that your mantra is essentially:

One should remain in harmony with ones fundamental nature.

That is certainly a very important aspect of life, zen, and poker. In doing so, one conserves energy and decisions seem effortless. However, I think you are over-emphasising stasis and de-emphasising flux.

I think I can sum up my answer to your problem with a quote from Zen Master Dahui-- "When you have attained mental and physical peace and quiet, don't get stuck in peace and quiet. Be indepdendent and free, like a gourd rolling and bobbing on a river."

So, not only must one accord with their true nature, conserving energy, but one must always be ready and able to adapt to their surroundings.

In short, I think you may be over-emphasizing playing "style" to the point it is becoming a fixed strategy. See Mike Caro's article on why fixed strategies fail: http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/archives/caro21.htm

I think you are exactly correct about what Negreanu was saying, but I also think if you asked Daniel whether he ever makes plays which are counter-intuitive to his fundamental nature, which are difficult for him to make, and/or which may conflict with his usual style--I'll bet he would say "yes, all the time."

I think it is very dangerous for a poker player to believe there is a fixed "system" that is going to work for him. To the extent you have honed and refined your "style" into a fixed groove, you are coming dangerously close to playing a "system."

If you watch Brunson play, he regularly disregards his own "system." Falling into a system or routine may be comfortable, may seem effortless, and may in fact conserve energy-- but it is non-adaptive and therefore dangerous.

Based on some of the things I saw at your website, I think you may be the type of person who is predisposed to search for an adopt a systemic approach to playing poker.

To the extent "style" is inherently related to "strategy," I think it may be dangerous to adopt a fixed style--and that may be the problem you are facing.

I don't mean to sound preachy or uppity--just trying to be helpful.

[Paizzon]

Leo, just a quick question. You mentioned IRC channels. Which ones are they?

Paizzon