What could Dannenman have put Hachem on in the last hand? - Page 4

technologic · #31 11-17-2005, 05:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I just can't get my mind around the last hand at the WSOP. I forget the exact betting sequence (I'm liable to get it wrong here, so please correct me) but I remember that Hachem called a PFR from the BB with 7-3 off suit. The flop came 4-5-6, with two diamonds. Dannenman bet out like $500,000 with A-3 off suit, and Hachem raised $1 million more. Dannenman called, and the turn came an ace. Dannenman bet out, and Hachem came big over the top of him (I don't remember if that would put Dannenman all in or not, but he went all in shortly thereafter).

Now what in the world could Dannenman have put Hachem on here that would make him call? Hachem obviously wasn't concerned about the ace, so if he's playing reasonably it seems to me you have to put him on a better ace or a set or think that he flopped the straight, which of course he did. Even a decent ace has Dannenman beat at that point, and the only other thing he's got going is the straight draw, but everything I can see puts him behind in the hand at that point. So what could Dannenman have put Hachem on that would make him go all in like that and risk the whole tournament?

[/ QUOTE ]

a simple fact could've been that dannenman thought he had plenty of outs going into the river if he was behind, and that dannenman could've also thought hachem was a better player. (he did read dannenman for a set earlier) if dannenman believes that hachem is a better player, this spot was as good as any to try to double through on a draw if he was behind, with a somewhat reasonable chance that he could have the best hand.

private joker · #32 11-17-2005, 06:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
He flopped the nuts with 73o (LOLZ)

[/ QUOTE ]

87 was the nuts.

Jason Strasser · #33 11-17-2005, 07:58 AM

Put 7.5M on the table and most people will play their best poker.

Tilt · #34 11-17-2005, 11:35 AM

Stop defending Danneman's play here. It just wasn't correct. Remember, he didn't push, he called a push. On that board you should get away from the hand after your opponent shows strength several times.

It wasn't a terrible, Tiffany Williamson-style call, but I think a better player could have gotten away from it.

#35 11-17-2005, 01:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hachem went all-in and Dannenman instantly called. Hachem held the 7c-3s and Dannenman the Ad-3c.

[/ QUOTE ]

It looked like there was actually some confusion when this happened. Could anyone pick up on the dialog? I thouhgt I heard Hachem say "all-in", the Dannenman said something I couldn't understand, then Hachem said "no wait", then Dannenman said "I'm all-in". What the hell was going on there?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Hachem was saying something like "big hand?" Acting like he was trying to get a tell on Dannenman, maybe. And then held up his hand and said: "wait. all-in."

JimHammer · #36 11-17-2005, 01:14 PM

I think it's laughable how all these people know that they could lay these hands down.

"Matusow blowup with KK."

"Black's 2 donkey plays"

"Hachem should have pushed with his jacks"

It's easy to be a critic when you see all the cards. It's poker, players bluff. Do you throw away your cards every time someone raises? Dannenman is the one who's been sitting there for 14 hours, I think he has a little better insight to Hachem's play than we have watching 20 hands over 2 hours.

Nobody plays perfect.

Toro · #37 11-17-2005, 01:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody plays perfect.

[/ QUOTE ]

The guy who cried when his 2nd nut flush lost played perfect poker for 3 days. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

MikeSmith · #38 11-17-2005, 02:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i don't think dannenman thought this through nearly as much as most of you have.

[/ QUOTE ]

bear in mind it was like 6:45am i believe when it was all said and done.

Tilt · #39 11-17-2005, 02:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's laughable how all these people know that they could lay these hands down.

"Matusow blowup with KK."

"Black's 2 donkey plays"

"Hachem should have pushed with his jacks"

It's easy to be a critic when you see all the cards. It's poker, players bluff. Do you throw away your cards every time someone raises? Dannenman is the one who's been sitting there for 14 hours, I think he has a little better insight to Hachem's play than we have watching 20 hands over 2 hours.

Nobody plays perfect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Many 2+2ers make better laydowns every day.

Danneman's play throughout the final table was based on such surface level play its laughable to hear you defend him. He basically looked at his cards, looked at the board (if it had been dealt yet) and decided whether his hand was better than average strength. If so, he pushed.

You think Hachem (an oviously experienced pro) didn't notice that? He was looking to trap him as soon as he got heads up. He knew that Danneman couldn't make a good laydown of any reasonably strong hand. Danneman only got as far as he did because (as seems to happen often at the WSOP) very good players failed to recognize how much of a rookie he was and tried frequently to bluff him or tried to induce bluffs.

He didn't even think twice about calling. He didn't even look and say "geez, how much will I have left if I fold? What could he have?" He was just hoping the ace was good or that he'd catch if it wasn't. And so into the middle goes - what? 3.5M in dollar terms that they were contending for at that point? - with only about 5% pot equity.

So fine, its easy if you see the cards on TV, sure. But based on what I saw there was no evidence that Danneman really even made a thoughtful decision. And I tell you, it may be easy to say now, but if were HU for the bracelet I believe I would have thought about a lot of things, such as:

I raised preflop, I have been raising mostly aces since we have been shorthanded, there's an ace on board - why isn't he worried about that?

He's relaxed, he's talking to me - when have I seen that before from him?

Could he have the nuts?

Has he bluffed me all-in before? Does he expect a call or fold based on the last 13 hours of my play?

If he is bluffing, does he have outs? What are they?

Where do I stand if I fold?

If you are going to defend his call, defend it with some logically deducted theory of why he should think his hand is best. But what people are saying (that top pair is a monster heads up, its late and he's tired, or its easy for you to say cause you know the cards) is not a very compelling defense.

ToledoTommy · #40 11-17-2005, 02:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Top pair with a straight draw looks good heads up, plus all the emotion in that room and the long hours of play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, unless your opponent is coming over the top of you on both the flop and the turn and putting you all-in. Or so it seems to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. However fatigue and time could've made your hand look like the nuts. I think ESPN didn't do a good enough job in exploring this but that's being covered in another string I believe.