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#11
12-05-2005, 07:44 PM
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Re: Should be standard, did I play it like that?
Looks good to me. The only variant I might try is to raise the turn for a free showdown. Depends on his pot flop aggression. If it's really high, I like your line best. If it's less than 1.5, I might raise the turn for a free showdown and bet the river if I improve.
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#12
12-05-2005, 07:47 PM
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Re: Should be standard, did I play it like that?
[ QUOTE ]
The only variant I might try is to raise the turn for a free showdown. [/ QUOTE ] Can you explain your reasoning for this? Make villain be any type of player you want.
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#13
12-05-2005, 07:58 PM
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Re: Should be standard, did I play it like that?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] The only variant I might try is to raise the turn for a free showdown. [/ QUOTE ] Can you explain your reasoning for this? Make villain be any type of player you want. [/ QUOTE ] Many villians will keep betting at you until you show you have a hand. If you think he'll slow down on your raise, you get to showdown for the same cost as calling down. If you improve, you get an extra bet by betting the river. Win 3BB when you improve, win/lose 2BB otherwise. It's particularly useful when you have a reasonable number of outs. I'm not saying the turn raise is the play. I'm saying with a common type of opponent, it's an option.
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#14
12-05-2005, 08:03 PM
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Re: Should be standard, did I play it like that?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] The only variant I might try is to raise the turn for a free showdown. [/ QUOTE ] Can you explain your reasoning for this? Make villain be any type of player you want. [/ QUOTE ] Many villians will keep betting at you until you show you have a hand. If you think he'll slow down on your raise, you get to showdown for the same cost as calling down. If you improve, you get an extra bet by betting the river. Win 3BB when you improve, win/lose 2BB otherwise. It's particularly useful when you have a reasonable number of outs. I'm not saying the turn raise is the play. I'm saying with a common type of opponent, it's an option. [/ QUOTE ] I don't get the advantage you said. Let us assume that he always slowsdown to our raise (best case, right?). You also said he will keep betting until we show we have a hand. That means that if he has nothing, we lose him if we raise the turn, but we still get the money on the river. If we improve, we can always raise the river, so we still get that same 3 BB when we improve win/lose 2 BB otherwise you mentioned. I am not saying that raising the turn is always wrong, I just don't really understand it.
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#15
12-05-2005, 08:05 PM
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Re: Should be standard, did I play it like that?
[ QUOTE ]
Looks good to me. The only variant I might try is to raise the turn for a free showdown. Depends on his pot flop aggression. If it's really high, I like your line best. If it's less than 1.5, I might raise the turn for a free showdown and bet the river if I improve. [/ QUOTE ] raising the turn for a free showdown sucks here because you ahve a gutshot and flush draw and thus cant fold to the 3bet.
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#16
12-05-2005, 08:07 PM
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Re: Should be standard, did I play it like that?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Looks good to me. The only variant I might try is to raise the turn for a free showdown. Depends on his pot flop aggression. If it's really high, I like your line best. If it's less than 1.5, I might raise the turn for a free showdown and bet the river if I improve. [/ QUOTE ] raising the turn for a free showdown sucks because you ahve a gutshot and thus cant fold to the 3bet. [/ QUOTE ] I thought that was entirely the point of a free showdown, to raise the turn when you have a hand, but also have outs to a better hand. Other wise what's the point of the free showdown? If you've got zero outs, just call down.
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#17
12-05-2005, 08:11 PM
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Re: Should be standard, did I play it like that?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Looks good to me. The only variant I might try is to raise the turn for a free showdown. Depends on his pot flop aggression. If it's really high, I like your line best. If it's less than 1.5, I might raise the turn for a free showdown and bet the river if I improve. [/ QUOTE ] raising the turn for a free showdown sucks because you ahve a gutshot and thus cant fold to the 3bet. [/ QUOTE ] I thought that was entirely the point of a free showdown, to raise the turn when you have a hand, but also have outs to a better hand. Other wise what's the point of the free showdown? If you've got zero outs, just call down. [/ QUOTE ] I thought the point of raising for a free showdown was you could do it when occasionally you will get a better hand to fold, but would have called down anyway.
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#18
12-05-2005, 08:11 PM
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Re: Should be standard, did I play it like that?
[ QUOTE ]
I am not saying that raising the turn is always wrong, I just don't really understand it. [/ QUOTE ] Not sure what to say other than to read the ToP section on the free showdown/free card. If we raise the turn and "lose" him, so what? We win the pot, that's good. Given the board, if he was behind, he had outs to win. Between the odds of him not betting the river and the odds of him hitting a hand on the river, having him fold the turn isn't a big deal. Most won't fold though. They'll call your turn raise and check the river. This means you see showdown for 2BB anyway, but if you hit your hand in a big way on the river, you can suck another 1BB out of them when you're ahead. Free showdown is the same principle as a free card, just at different street. Same caveats apply though regardling likelihood of success. You can't always buy a free card, nor can you or should you always buy a free showdown.
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#19
12-05-2005, 08:15 PM
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Re: Should be standard, did I play it like that?
[ QUOTE ]
I thought the point of raising for a free showdown was you could do it when occasionally you will get a better hand to fold, but would have called down anyway. [/ QUOTE ] A fold is nice and part of the equation, but it's worth it if you have a hand that might be best. If you're convinced you don't have the best hand, calling down is pointless. Calling the turn maybe if you have odds, but why call the river if you know you're going to lose? The free showdown move can win in 3 ways: 1) Villian folds to the raise 2) You have the better hand anyway 3) You hit a better hand on the river. If we're committed to calling the river (this is important) then you must believe #2 is a possibility. If it's a possibility, then a free showdown can be a worthwhile play. Again though, folks here just asked what we might do as an alternative. I might raise the turn. Not usually, but maybe 1/4th the time to mix up my game.
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#20
12-05-2005, 08:16 PM
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Re: Should be standard, did I play it like that?
[ QUOTE ]
If we raise the turn and "lose" him, so what? [/ QUOTE ] If he was bluffing with extremely few outs, this is bad. [ QUOTE ] Most won't fold though. They'll call your turn raise and check the river. This means you see showdown for 2BB anyway, but if you hit your hand in a big way on the river, you can suck another 1BB out of them when you're ahead. [/ QUOTE ] I don't get how this method sucks out another 1 BB when ahead. Couldn't we just raise the river when we improve? Most hands that call our turn raise will call our river raise. Most hands that call our turn raise would have bet the river. Furthermore, getting 3-bet here sucks, as we can't fold. [ QUOTE ] Free showdown is the same principle as a free card, just at different street. [/ QUOTE ] I think these two principles are entirely different.
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