Main event "get chips early" logic skewed

[cero_z]

Hi runnerunner,

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The biggest mistake I saw bad players make in this year was getting too aggressive when they got short on chips. Pushing from MP with AJ when they still had enough for 10 rounds, for example.

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Check out Harrington on Hold'em Vol. 2 if you think this is a big mistake.

[Howard Treesong]

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Can't someone (like, half of 2+2) who played in the WSOP comment on this.

I heard it was like 20 hands/hr max

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I didn't make it through the first day, but play at my table was reasonably quick. I didn't do a strict count, but I'm fairly certain we played at least five orbits for each of the first three levels, perhaps even six.

I've read reports indicating that play near the bubble was incredibly slow.

[benkahuna]

I played in the ME too, first day only until around 10:30 p.m. I recall playing even more hands than you mention, but it was partly skewed by my early table that was very tight. Not one person busted out until 3 hours into the event.

[woodguy]

I really like these two quotes and I think they are relevent.

"The typical tournament player should not ever turn down any situation with the smallest of edges. You could even argue that he should gamble in situations where he has slightly the worst of it. But that is not the way the vast majority of mediocre tournament players operate"

David Sklansky Tournament Poker For Advance Players p.25


"When I play (tournaments), I often feel as if I am in a race to get the chip lead at my table."

Barry Greenstein Ace on the River p.214


Gaining a large stack early also helps lessen your variance later in the tourney as with a big stack you can take the "bad beats" and still be alive.

Playing too tight and not pushing your edges in any tourney just gets you to the rail.

Regards,
Woodguy

[benkahuna]

[ QUOTE ]
I really like these two quotes and I think they are relevent.

"The typical tournament player should not ever turn down any situation with the smallest of edges. You could even argue that he should gamble in situations where he has slightly the worst of it. But that is not the way the vast majority of mediocre tournament players operate"

David Sklansky Tournament Poker For Advance Players p.25


"When I play (tournaments), I often feel as if I am in a race to get the chip lead at my table."

Barry Greenstein Ace on the River p.214


Gaining a large stack early also helps lessen your variance later in the tourney as with a big stack you can take the "bad beats" and still be alive.

Playing too tight and not pushing your edges in any tourney just gets you to the rail.

Regards,
Woodguy

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And playing to get a chip lead early increases early variance, increasing your chances of hitting the rail early. Tournament guides I've read suggest going for an early chip lead make you more likely to force the action early and unnecessarily increase risk.

Unless you're Daniel Negreanu and you hate being at the final table without a big stack so you have a chance of winning, I'm not really sure it's a very good strategy. I need convincing.

Just because Barry Greenstein does it doesn't mean it's for me (I'm a long way from being Barry) and Sklansky's quote doesn't imply going for an early chip lead is good strategy.

[shaniac]

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Gaining a large stack early also helps lessen your variance later in the tourney as with a big stack you can take the "bad beats" and still be alive.

Playing too tight and not pushing your edges in any tourney just gets you to the rail.

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I usually operate with this principle as a subtext, too, but the OP has a point: Although you will have to push small edges and accumulate chips at some point in the tournament, it doesn't have to be in the first few levels of the tournament. This really has nothing to do with the number of hands-per-level; playing with 200 BBs for 1.75 hours does not require you to do anything in particular (you don't even have to show up) at the beginning. You'd be much better off just feeling things out at first and picking your spots to gamble agressively a little later.

[cwsiggy]

From the WSOP blogs, they were saying Lederer was being ultra aggressive, making 5k bets in the first couple levels. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] Who knows what the circumstances were but he went deep.

[shaniac]

Was he opening the pot preflop for 5K or firing off big bets into already-large pots? I'd suspect the latter, and in any case such vague reports do not tell us much about the relative value of gambling early as a means of going deep.

My opinion remains that you just gotta get out there and play poker, not go in with a pre-ordained strategy.

PS. It's too bad this thread isn't in MTT.

[cwsiggy]

from Cardplayer's reports... probably doesn't mean much since they didn't go into details.

Howard Lederer's Aggressive Start
Log: It's becoming fairly obvious why Howard Lederer wears the Full Tilt hockey jersey to the table. Lederer is using the poker equivilant of the body check, running over his table thus far with an all in, and some big bets. CardPlayer.com reporters have already seen Lederer make bets of $5,000 in chips twice, and Level 1 isn't even over yet.

[Moonsugar]

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My opinion remains that you just gotta get out there and play poker, not go in with a pre-ordained strategy.


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This, I think, is also Ivey's opinion.