A post for Tommy Angelo.

[Mikey]

I'm playing in a very loose agressive game with the same old faces. The game is 10-handed. 10-20 HE.

I'm in seat 9. UTG is seat 8. 3-bettor is in seat 10.
Cutoff is in seat 4.

UTG limps, he'll limp in with any 2.

I look down and see my 2nd favorite hand in Hold'em and Raise it up.

The next guy to my left 3-bets me instantly, that only means 1 thing and that's an overpair, which overpair, I don't know yet.

It gets folded around to Mr. Any two will do in the cutoff And he calls, the blinds fold, UTG calls. I cap it. Everyone calls.

The flop is 9 4 4 rainbow.

UTG checks.
Now I decide to do something different here. Normally I would bet my Kings here 100% of the time, but I'm pretty sure that the guy on my left has an overpair, so I check thinking that maybe I can get in some type of checkraise here. He disappoints me and checks as well, as does the 3-bet cold caller.

On the turn falls a 6, no help to the flush draws.

UTG checks. I bet. and everyone calls.

The river is a 7.

UTG takes a look at the board and says "I'll bet."

I pause look at board think to myself, don't let emotion get involved in this one, and put these cowboys to bed they can't be good anymore. You know.... they aren't good. The air around you says your hand isn't good. As I'm staring at the board I can feel the disappointment in the other two players as well. I couldn't do it Tommy, the pot was too big, I knew I was I beat, but I had to do it, I had to put in the extra $20. Guy on my left calls, and now the 3-bet cold caller raises it up.

As I'm looking at the cutoff there is a certain air that surrounds him and I know he doesn't have anything its a stale air, he misread his hand, he thinks that by raising here he can represent something strong, but I know he doesn't have anything but hopes and dreams. UTG shrugs now and murmurs something and he calls. I make the fatal mistake and call again, as does the man to my left.

Tommy what did I do here.

What do you do here from preventing yourself from making these types of mistakes especially the intial one?

Why do I sometimes go against my judgement when it has proven to be correct so many times and rarely ever wrong?

[Tommy Angelo]

"What do you do here from preventing yourself from making these types of mistakes especially the intial one?"

Hi Mikey,

The way I prevent from making the initial mistake of checking the flop is to not even think of it as an option. If I raise TWICE before the flop with KK, and no ace flops, and it's my option on the flop to check or bet, it is impossible for me to check.

As to the rest of the hand, I have no idea what you should have done or when or why. You were in mysterious unchartered waters. The biggest reason I would always bet in that spot on the flop is because the information stream must remain intact to be later useful. Once I make any bet that is exactly the same as what someone would do if they did not have KK, all is lost. It's like guessing all over from scratch, as to what they have, compared to simply betting out on the flop, because now I have to think about what they now now think I have, having checked, when before, all I had to do was assume that they thought I probably had a big pair, and proceed reasonably and predictably to attain maximum profit and/or savings.

The situations yet to unfold, on the flop and turn, are always too diverse in number to anticipate any of them individually, so I anticipate all of them collectively, from a position of maximum information and leverage. Bet the flop.


Tommy

[Mikey]

"The biggest reason I would always bet in that spot on the flop is because the information stream must remain intact to be later useful."

Right on. I was lost throughout the whole hand because I checked on the flop.

[SpaceAce]

Tommy used a lot of words to get to the central point which is: you should have bet the flop. I have limited experience at the $10-$20 level but I think your reasoning was faulty on the flop. You believe the person to your immediate left has a big pair so you decide to go for the check-raise. Now, it would nice to trap the other two players for a bet each but why risk whiffing the check-raise and giving a free card to two limpers/cold-callers when you can bet and possibly get to make it three bets heads-up with the other big pair after he raises and knocks everyone else out? I think check-raising is a great play but something about the dynamics of this particular situation makes it seem like a shaky idea to me.

One very important thing that I think swings the flop decision away from check-raising and toward betting is that you put in the last raise pre-flop. Given the circumstances, I prefer to bet out and hope to get raised.

Edit: By the way, I agree with the informational aspect of betting here but Tommy already covered that so I left it out.

SpaceAce

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
The way I prevent from making the initial mistake of checking the flop is to not even think of it as an option. If I raise TWICE before the flop with KK, and no ace flops, and it's my option on the flop to check or bet, it is impossible for me to check.

As to the rest of the hand, I have no idea what you should have done or when or why. You were in mysterious unchartered waters. The biggest reason I would always bet in that spot on the flop is because the information stream must remain intact to be later useful. Once I make any bet that is exactly the same as what someone would do if they did not have KK, all is lost. It's like guessing all over from scratch, as to what they have, compared to simply betting out on the flop, because now I have to think about what they now now think I have, having checked, when before, all I had to do was assume that they thought I probably had a big pair, and proceed reasonably and predictably to attain maximum profit and/or savings.

The situations yet to unfold, on the flop and turn, are always too diverse in number to anticipate any of them individually, so I anticipate all of them collectively, from a position of maximum information and leverage. Bet the flop.


Tommy



[/ QUOTE ]

This advice is so powerful, that I'm sure it was lost on many of the people who've read it.

In fact, if we each printed it out and read it out loud before every session we played, it wouldn't be too often.

When you consider the high percentage of holdem profits that come from big pairs, I'd go so far as to say this is the single most critical piece of post flop thinking I've ever read on this forum.

Thanks Tommy,

-Scott

[Tommy Angelo]

Hi Scott,

"When you consider the high percentage of holdem profits that come from big pairs ..."

Could I add one little thing here which is that for a winning B&M limit-hold'em player, almost none of his earn comes from what he does with KK before the flop, or from what he does with KK on the flop when no ace flops, and that's because it's almost never right to call or fold before the flop with KK, and almost no one does, and it's almost never right to fold on the flop with KK when no ace comes, and almost no one does. So KK before the flop and usually after the flop is a huge tie.


Tommy

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Scott,

"When you consider the high percentage of holdem profits that come from big pairs ..."

Could I add one little thing here which is that for a winning B&M limit-hold'em player, almost none of his earn comes from what he does with KK before the flop, or from what he does with KK on the flop when no ace flops, and that's because it's almost never right to call or fold before the flop with KK, and almost no one does, and it's almost never right to fold on the flop with KK when no ace comes, and almost no one does. So KK before the flop and usually after the flop is a huge tie.


Tommy


[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Tommy,

I'd disagree only in that I think he's losing a lot of 'earn' by not betting this flop with KK, but that's not really what I meant. I was referring to playing your best hands in a manner that allows you to make the best decisions as the hand continues (which in this specific case is betting the flop).

Especially in B&M games, playing in such a way that your reads on later streets are most reliabale must have a significant positive impact your earn.

-Scott

[Huh]

Hi Tommy,

It's been a while. Hope all is going well. With that out of the way, I respectfully disagree [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]. While raising with KK is right and most people tend to play KK correctly pre-flop and on the flop, I think it is still a big source of one's earn.

The reason for this isn't the Hero's masterful play of KK, but because of the Doofus play of the opponent. When the Doofus has KK, you are likely not in the pot, cause you are a tight aggressive player and you are picking you're spots(right?). When you play KK, the doofus looks at J9s and says, "Sure..I'll call two cold..Who cares if we are heads up? My hand sure looks purty and Hero probably only has AK anyhow. If I flop a J or a 9 with no AKQ on board, I think I'll raise his bet." The Doofus than proceeds to call your re-raise and sometimes even pay off your turn and river bets unimproved. Those bets, he does not have the luxury of collecting, yet you do...Hence your profit.

-James

[mike l.]

"The Doofus than proceeds to call your re-raise and sometimes even pay off your turn and river bets unimproved."

change "sometimes" to "always" and youve got it perfect.

[34TheTruth34]

[ QUOTE ]
My hand sure looks purty and Hero probably only has AK anyhow

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, excellent. great post.