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View Poll Results: Axs Hands
AKs only 6 11.54%
AQs - AKs 18 34.62%
AJs - AKs 13 25.00%
ATs - AKs 10 19.23%
A9s - AKs 4 7.69%
A8s - AKs 0 0%
A7s - AKs 1 1.92%
A6s - AKs 0 0%
A5s - AKs 0 0%
A4s - AKs 0 0%
A3s - AKs 0 0%
A2s - AKs 0 0%
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 12-24-2005, 02:39 PM
roy_miami roy_miami is offline
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Default 2 QQ lines with an Ace on the flop. Which one is dumber?

Hi all,

Two QQ hands from yesterday, I took different lines on each and I didn't really like either. The villains are different in each hand but have basically the same MO. They are both too loose preflop, aggressive preflop but not too nutty post flop from what I've seen so far (although I'm sure they are both capable of doing nutty things)

Hand 1

30/60 6 handed

I raise QQ UTG villain 3 bets in the BB and I just call. Flop is A9T rainbow. Villain checks, I bet, he raises, I 3-bet, he caps, I call and fold the turn.

Hand 2

30/60 10 handed

EP raises, I 3bet QQ in MP, folded to him and he calls. Flop is AK5 with 2 hearts. Check, check on the flop. Turn is a black 3. Bet, call. River is a black 4. Bet, call.
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  #2  
Old 12-24-2005, 04:26 PM
chief444 chief444 is offline
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Default Re: 2 QQ lines with an Ace on the flop. Which one is dumber?

I have no idea what your thinking on hand 1. At least in hand two you paid the same when very likely behind but got to show it down for that cost.
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  #3  
Old 12-24-2005, 04:40 PM
roy_miami roy_miami is offline
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Default Re: 2 QQ lines with an Ace on the flop. Which one is dumber?

[ QUOTE ]
I have no idea what your thinking on hand 1. At least in hand two you paid the same when very likely behind but got to show it down for that cost.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was trying to save myself a small bet by betting the flop and checking the turn. I kind of lost my cool when he checkraised the flop.
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  #4  
Old 12-24-2005, 05:15 PM
chief444 chief444 is offline
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Default Re: 2 QQ lines with an Ace on the flop. Which one is dumber?

yeah...that seems fine but the 3-bet and calling the cap is the part I didn't get.
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  #5  
Old 12-24-2005, 06:44 PM
Pog0 Pog0 is offline
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Default Re: 2 QQ lines with an Ace on the flop. Which one is dumber?

calling the cap isn't bad. Probably about neutral.
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  #6  
Old 12-24-2005, 07:23 PM
CardSharpCook CardSharpCook is offline
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Default Re: 2 QQ lines with an Ace on the flop. Which one is dumber?

wow, hand one is donktastic!!! you know, for just one more SB you could have gotten a showdown? But you decide to put 2bbs in on the flop for God knows what reason. Trying to induce KK to fold maybe?
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  #7  
Old 12-24-2005, 11:38 PM
roy_miami roy_miami is offline
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Default Re: 2 QQ lines with an Ace on the flop. Which one is dumber?

[ QUOTE ]
wow, hand one is donktastic!!! you know, for just one more SB you could have gotten a showdown? But you decide to put 2bbs in on the flop for God knows what reason. Trying to induce KK to fold maybe?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I was very upset with myself after playing it this way. Whats your line? Check the flop and call the turn and river like I did in hand 2?
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  #8  
Old 12-25-2005, 01:39 AM
CardSharpCook CardSharpCook is offline
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Default Re: 2 QQ lines with an Ace on the flop. Which one is dumber?

Yeah, I'm ok with that line. It is just that the "normal" range for 3betting is JJ-AA, AK/AQ. Fine, villian might be an agro-donk, but against normal players, I can even fold the turn (or the flop had he bet it). I hear tell that the 30/60 is full of light 3bettors (I play 20/40), so that might make this a check/call down, but I'm not about to initiate betting against a somewhat sane 3bettor with an ace on the board.

Note: It has become commonplace even at 20/40 to 3bet 77+ in position, and that too might make this a call down. But with QQ- I am able to fold a flop with an ace after being 3bet PF. Player/situation dependant, of course.
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  #9  
Old 12-25-2005, 02:03 AM
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Default Re: 2 QQ lines with an Ace on the flop. Which one is dumber?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wow, hand one is donktastic!!! you know, for just one more SB you could have gotten a showdown? But you decide to put 2bbs in on the flop for God knows what reason. Trying to induce KK to fold maybe?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I was very upset with myself after playing it this way. Whats your line? Check the flop and call the turn and river like I did in hand 2?

[/ QUOTE ]
Roy, you came up with a good plan(betting the flop with the intention of checking the turn) You just didnt execute it.

What I mean is in your situation either you have the villain beat and he is drawing to 2 outs, or he flopped a monster and is trying to trap you. If the villain is trying to trap you he will either checkraise the flop, or wait til the turn to checkraise. In this situation betting the flop with the intention of checking the turn and calling all rivers is the best strategy IMO. If you bet the flop and the villain checkraises, just fold. Also, if you bet the flop, and check the turn and the villain checks again, then bet the river for value.

In this situation where there is a high probability that the villain is trapping you, taking the "bet flop check turn line" you will lose .5BB or 1.5BB when your trailing, and you will win 1.5BB when you are ahead.

If you take the check flop call down line, you will lose 2BB when behind and win 2BB when ahead.

Becuz I believe you will usually be trailing in this situation I like the "bet flop check turn line" becuz you will lose less in the long run.

Of course if youre against a really tricky aggressive opponent, then I would go with the check flop call down line, since you can never get outplayed off the best hand using this line.
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  #10  
Old 12-25-2005, 03:43 AM
SackUp SackUp is offline
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Default Re: 2 QQ lines with an Ace on the flop. Which one is dumber?

Hand 1: Cap preflop. You can be a alot more sure of villain's bets if he knows you have capped preflop and it is just good for equity sake. Then if you get c/r on the flop. I'd call the flop bet and likely fold a river bet UI. No reason to go to SD with this player given you said they are not too nutty postflop.

Hand 2: Why not bet the flop? His preflop raising range is huge right now and there is no reason not to bet this flop and take it down right there if need be. Otherwise if he just calls then I would check the turn and then make a decision whether to call or fold the river if he bets. Also, if he c/r the flop and bets the turn then I think it is a fairly easy fold. He likely will not lead the turn with a FD alone.
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