What is cut off point for calling with small PP's

[scrapperdog]

Playing for set value. I have been folding to 5X bb raises, calling with less than that. I am undecided if caling a 4X is profitable or not against an unknown player. If someone has given this deep thought please enlighten me.

[rikz]

This is in the FAQ:

Q: I've heard other posters mentioning the 5/10 rule. What is it?

A: The 5/10 rule is an important no-limit concept that first appeared in Bob Ciaffone's excellent book, "PL & NL Poker." To quote directly from the book:

"When contemplating calling a raise because your position is good, you have a clear call if the raise is less than 5% of your stack, and a clear fold if it is more than 10%. In between those numbers, use your judgement."

It's a good rule for calling a preflop raise with a pocket pair in hopes of hitting a set. The driving force behind the concept is the implied odds in a given situation. If you get your set, but the opponent only has 5BBs after the initial raise, calling to hit the set in the first place is incorrect.

I don't think about it relative to BB raise at all really...

Here's what I consider:

(a) Stack Sizes - what are the effective stack sizes if I call? We will hit our set about 1/8. Most people look for the effective stacks to be at least 10x the bet. I look for a little more, because you usually will -not- get the other person all the way in.

(b) Player type - you want to be in against a player that is pretty aggressive, and unable to let go of his overpairs, TPTK type hands

Another note... I find that, the bigger the preflop raise, the more likely you are to get the all-in payout. The big raises mean QQ-AA, and when the flop comes 5s6s8c, they love to protect their hand against draws.

Good post. I've been having the same thought and drew the line at the same place - 4xBB. I like z28dreams comments, you do have to evaluate your opponents stack to take a look at implied odds. I just can't pull the trigger on 5xBB with 22.

[4_2_it]

Looking at my PT stats for 75k hands, all my pocket pairs are very profitable. I'll call using the 5/10 rule. 22 and 33 are easy to get away from post flop and no one ever puts you on a set of ducks.

[excession]

As 22 is far easier to play than 99 a lot of the time - I'm not sure I differentiate small from medium pairs that much..even though in theory they run a higher risk of losing to a better set

If the money both in my opponent(s)' combined stacks and in my own stack is more than 10x the cost of a call then I call... I am perfectly happy calling a 5 or 6x raise with a small pair as the increased cost is offset by the liklihhood of my opponents whole stack going in.

Just curious, are you more likely to call a raise w/ a low/mid pocket pair against someone that is 30/9/3.5, or someone thats 15/3.5/1.0 ? I would assume the latter, because it is more likely they will flop an overpair or tptk, so i will get paid off when my set hits. is this reasoning correct?

-Grant

[Morrek]

[ QUOTE ]
Just curious, are you more likely to call a raise w/ a low/mid pocket pair against someone that is 30/9/3.5, or someone thats 15/3.5/1.0 ? I would assume the latter, because it is more likely they will flop an overpair or tptk, so i will get paid off when my set hits. is this reasoning correct?

-Grant

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah that's probably true, but I still only try to figure if I'll make atleast ~8 times as much as I'm calling if I hit (generally) before I make the call

[jubeirm]

How does the number of players effect your decision?

For myself as the number of players (those already in weighed against the potential players that remain to act) increases I like the strength of my PP to increase as well. In other words I won't play a low 22-55 against more than 3 players since even when I do hit the set my chances of winning have decreased. My reasoning here is that more players means more potential for higher sets and it not that then a higher chance someone will pull (or stay for) a straight or flush.

[4_2_it]

You guys are missing a lot of value not playing any pp against villains who have 40bb plus stacks. Calling a 4-5bb raise is always correct. The numbe rof players in the hand is not important. This is set mining 101. You are trying to reinvent the wheel and rediscover fire at the same time.