Flop action.

[Entity]

8-handed again. Two limpers to the Button, who is far too aggressive and LAGGY. He's not a maniac but he's definitely dumb, especially with good Ace high and potentially King high hands. He raises. I 3-bet AKo in the BB. Limpers call. He caps. We all call. 4 to the flop for a merry 16.5SB.

The flop is 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

What's my best play here? I'm considering betting out, checkraising, and check-calling. I think they're all possibly interesting but I haven't decided which is best here.

A basic read on the limpers: they're not good but they aren't 100% calling stations. They're smart enough to know that this is a good flop for 33 or 87s no matter what I do, but they also might be the sort to play on with pairs knowing that it's unlikely that this board hit me.

Rob

[Lmn55d]

I think check/calling > checkraising > betting out in this spot. I see that you are considering checkraising because you could easily be ahead of button and you want to protect your hand and possibly induce some incorrect folds or incorrect calls from the limpers.

The problem, imo, is that this pot is pretty damn big already. If you checkraise button, the first limper will be getting 10:1 and the second 12:1 if the first one calls. They are still correct to call with overcards and maybe even 3 outers (if we include implied odds).

Check-calling has a couple advantages. First, you can see if either of the limpers checkraises which will help you make a good turn decision. Second, you retain the ability to checkraise button on the turn when you can actually knock out the limpers. The button is also less likely to 3bet you on the turn with a better hand. Let's say the turn is a 2-9. Those all could be great cards to checkraise depending on the flop action. Check-calling also allows you to see how the limpers act on the turn (assuming that they call the flop). If you checkraise and are called you're usually gonna have to take the lead on the turn.

[MarkL444]

in a pot that big i think top priority is winning. you could have the button dominated, so i think a check/raise is best here. if it gets you heads up thats money.

[Surfbullet]

I like lmn's thoughts on this hand. My LAGgro self would probably just c/r the flop without thinking too hard about it.

Surf

[elindauer]

Tough spot. You could well be ahead. On the other hand, you might be behind or even way behind.

You want to fold the limpers if they really missed the flop. On the other hand, you don't want to put in a ton of money with the worst hand.

In light of all that, I like a bet. The limpers must see that they are not closing the action and your bet may well have the same effect as facing them with two cold but at half the price. If you get the feeling that a 3-bet will get the pot heads up, do it. Otherwise, just call a button raise, should it come.

-Eric

[TJD]

I like the logic and if the limpers were as logical as you then check/calling makes a lot of sense.

However, my instinctive reaction would be to CR and having thought it through, I would still probably opt for that.

Firstly, as with the check/call option it might get bet and raised before it gets to the button. Then, after the buttons 3-bet [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I'm folding.

Secondly, I really want these limpers to disappear. I know that they will be getting decent odds to call 2-cold but a) they are not closing the action so that might discourage them and b) I get the feeling that having to call a raise even if the odds are present is more difficult for many players.

I would hope that these 2 factors encouraged one or both of them to fold. I do not do it with any great hope but I really do not want 2 players making an 18-1 call with any 2 or weird backdoors and stealing MY pot [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

I agree that in theory CR the turn is better but that may well give 2 hands a chance to hit a lucky turn.

I CR and hope!

t

[sfer]

Checkraise and plan accordingly based on everyone's action.

[bobdibble]

I will sometimes just call the raise pre-flop from the blinds and then checkraise raggy flops like this (and ones that hit me as well). The limpers are not so tied to the pot then and I have a better chance of getting it HU with the button.

I like check-raising for the reasons already outlined in the thread. If you can win vs button UI that is huge and you must get heads up if possible.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I will sometimes just call the raise pre-flop from the blinds and then checkraise raggy flops like this (and ones that hit me as well). The limpers are not so tied to the pot then and I have a better chance of getting it HU with the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dead money > live money, and I've seen a number of limpers limp-fold in this game and in other games that play like this one before. In general I don't mind if they call or fold preflop, but I'd prefer to give them the choice.

Rob