For all you KK pre-flop fold haters (Foxwood hand)

[scott8]

From Cardplayer:

Hasan Habib raised preflop to $6,000 and Chris McCormick pushed all in. Thomas Fuller contemplated the call for a short while before pushing all in over the top. Habib, almost immediately mucks his kings face up.

With Habib out of the hand, Fuller immediately shows his A-A, clearly the hand that Habib put him on. McCormick is in a dominated position with his A-K. The board fails to produce a miracle, and McCormick is eliminated.

Meanwhile, Habib averted disaster with a big laydown. Even after taking a minor hit, Habib is still sitting on a healthy stack of $75,000 in chips

[mlagoo]

this hand has pretty much nothing to do with folding KK preflop in an online tournament (which is, you know, 95% of the hands we talk about on here)

ya, online I don't do it, live with the action going: raise/re-raise/all-in, I mean, it's still not an easy laydown for Habib, but I think i'd fold here too [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[SossMan]

gimme stack sizes or else this might as well be the WPT forum

[scott8]

Blinds 300/600/100

Preflop: Habib 81k
McCormack 10k
Fuller 40k

And I could care less if this helps your online game.

[Annulus]

Given the stack sizes I think this is an even tougher laydown, props to Habib. i still don't know the average size, but i'm assuming Habib is above average.

[ansky451]

Heres my take on all this.

You can say all you want about this being proof that it's sometimes right to lay it down, and I'm not disagreeing necessarily. However, you can't just look at this without context. If Hasan Habib has laid down KK pf 10 times, and been right once, it doesnt mean that the one time he was right, he was more right than the times when he made a mistake. At that point, its just a matter of luck.

You can't take this hand in vacuum. There is no reason to justify folding KK pf by using this as an example.

[scott8]

I certainly wasn't justifying folding KK pre-flop.

Really all I was doing was posting an interesting hand in jest. The only thing I missed was the (nc) in the title.

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
And I could care less if this helps your online game.

[/ QUOTE ]

what i was suggesting was that i can only assume, and i dont think it would be a stretch to do so, that there would be some kind of physical read present. barring a convincing physical read, i'm never laying down KK preflop with this action. are you?

[SossMan]

Somehow I doubt those details are even close to correct. Is HH really raising 10x PF w/ KK? Something is fishy.

It had to be like an EP raise to 3x, HH makes it 10x, guy pushes, EP overpushes, HH folds. that i can see.