Flat-out adorable

[EverettKings]

I didnt consider for a second having the chance to check-push. I fully expected him to push with anything that he liked.

The thing is, he doesnt fold any hand that i open push. And given how the hand went, im behind most of the time here. so check/fold was my idea.

HOWEVER i knew my line would make him scratch his head, so i was HOPING for a free card.

Then he bet 600.

[EverettKings]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This guy was obv on the tight/passive side, not terribly tight or terribly passive but, you know, a little.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think his "weak" bet after the flop could be JJ or 88? And how can we say hes "obviously on the tight/passive side" based on this information you provided?

[/ QUOTE ]

Could be. But theres a lot more ways to make a marginal hand than JJ or 88. They're a rare case.

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
So preflop he has to have a hand of some kind. 77+/AQ+, maybe AJ/KQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree. Calling in MP he more than likely has some type of hand.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop comes down J84r. Normally I just fire again and go from there, BUT here he only has 2200 and the pot is 1400. I can't bet and still get away. There is no way to probe for information. If I bet it will be a push (or effectively a push), no way around it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's say you bet t900 and he pushes. You'll be getting 3.36 to 1 odds. IF you have 6 outs that about exactly what you need to make the call a neutral (not +EV) decision. Factor in some (albeit small since he'd be more likely to just call) possibility of a set and I think there is an argument to be made for folding. Of course, you can bet less but that's often interpreted weakly and not a reliable way of getting info IMO in this type of situation. You could bet more but you'd obviously be pot committed. So I do think you can make an argument for folding if he pushes after you bet around t900. Just one possibility, not saying it's the best line.

[ QUOTE ]
And there is no way I get medium pairs to fold here. Just no way. So basically I can get AK/AQ/KQ to fold, but everything else stays. Ugh.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't completely disagree with you here but I do think he could fold TT or 99. I absolutely don't think it's a certainty, probably 50/50. But he's got enough chips left to fold and have some poker left.

[ QUOTE ]
So I check. Put yourself in his spot. You see an EP raiser to 600, call, and he checks a mediumish flop? WTF??? I mean MP here was definitely not expecting that. If he has a hand like 77 or KQ or maybe even TT here he's not likely getting frisky. He more than likely to raise an eyebrow and check behind. Seriously what kind of raiser doesn't c-bet there?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just like there's some possibility that he folds a better hand like TT or 99, I think there's a possibility your checking here because you have AK/AQ and missed the flop. A lot of players would weakly check here with the intention of giving up unless they make top pair or get some type of nice draw. Based on my experience, a lot of players who have a middle pair put you on AK because they always like to think that they're opponent has AK on a rag flop.

[ QUOTE ]
When I checked I was going to give up the pot if he made a committing bet, which I expected from hands like TT and AJ and overpairs and stuff. I also expected a check from a lot of marginal hands, and then I could hit the turn or push it with (I think) more FE.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

[ QUOTE ]
So then he bets 600. OK this is the next best thing to a confused check. If he makes this bet with AJ well then good for him. But this smells marginal, though I don't feel like if I push I can quite get 99 to fold. I really think 99 type stuff sighs and calls if I push the flop there. So I figured I could call and push any turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it's a ragged flop, it's tough to say that a bet of just less than half the pot is wrong. If you've got overcards you're paying too much if you call. And if you've got an overpair, it lets you *possibly* get away from the hand. Would he fold if you push? AJ no way. J anything, no way. TT or 99, possibly. They shouldn't. Which gets us to my question of "what hand are you representing?" An overpair? JJ? Let's say that he can get pushed off his weakish bet if you represent a better hand correctly. If you had AA/KK/QQ would you check-raise the flop? I think QQ might. KK unlikely but possible. AA is slow playing. JJ is also slow playing. So out of all the hands you can represent that are ahead of top pair, the most likely way of playing this hand (presuming you can push him off) is by just calling the flop. Which you did.

[ QUOTE ]
But why? Why on earth would you do that? Well, what the hell can he make of it all? The pfr checks and calls when I make my quizzical bet, then puts me all in on the turn? Huh?

He's lost. I really think my hand line smells strong if anything. It does not look like I'm trying to get him out of the hand (at all), and my bet is big enough that he can get away (1600 into 2400).

[/ QUOTE ]

So the key to representing a better hand is how you play the turn. If you had AA/KK/JJ how would you play the turn? Would you push? Well the turn certainly created some draws so maybe you'd push to protect your hand. Personally, when I'm heads up I'm willing to take a little more risk with a big hand versus a draw. So I'm personally not likely going to push the turn. Of course, the problem with checking is that he could bet at which point you pretty much have to fold because he's ahead and you don't have odds to draw. However, you ARE playing this like you might have a decent hand so I can see him checking behind and hoping for a cheap showdown. If he did check the turn, I would bet the river (regardless of what came) for an amount that commits his stack but that I could theoretically fold to if he pushed because the chances of having the best hand are incredibly slim.

[ QUOTE ]
There was no good way to play this hand with these crappy stacks, but I thought this was the best I could do.

Everett

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that stack sizes here create a problem. I think what we're trying to do in this situation is make a bet that's big enough to commit his entire stack but that let's us fold as cheaply as possible. If he commits his stack, he's ahead and it comes down to an odds decision. Forcing that decision on the turn (like you did) is better IMO than the flop.

I think I'm indifferent to leading out versus checking and seeing what he does. Both option are fairly strong and give you a chance of pushing him off a better hand. However, I think you could have bet a lot less. He's got 2255 behind. If you bet half of that he's pot committed. So if he calls you KNOW he's got a hand he's not folding. Then on the river, if you don't improve, you can check-fold.

I rambled because I was trying to think through all the possibilities. So I think you're line's not too bad but making a smaller bet would have accomplished the same (see if he's committed or not) for less.

[Punker]

All three options are ok. In all actuality, his call preflop and bet of 600 on the flop is the much weirder play than your particular line. His bet leaves you in the dark as to whether he's betting small to try to steal it with a hand he's unsure is best and will fold to heat, or betting small to induce you to give him action with his monster.

After further consideration, I don't think the specific execution of your strategy really matters; after the flop comes, he's probably already decided whether he's going to play this hand for all his chips or not. It's just a question of whether you can somehow guess whether the answer is yes or no. If you think he's going to play for all his chips, you check fold. If you think he isn't, you somehow get all your chips in in any situation where he is not utterly pot committed.

So, ideal would be to play the hand in such a way to try to get him to give you that information as to whether he's going to play for all his chips, without exposing too many of your own; however, his stack is so short that you never really have a chance to do this in this spot.

So, whatever line you take will should be based heavily on his previous plays; he must have been mid-to-short stacked for a while. Has he been pushing in on steals, or repushing on raises, or cold calling raises, etc? If you don't have that information, what you do here is essentially a straight out guessing game, and given that he's put in half his stack already, I'm inclined to guess "he's going to play for it all".

[EverettKings]

I mean the guy hadn't been noticeabley active or inactive, passive or aggressive. But betting 600 on the flop is one of two things:

A) He's a supergenius that is way ahead of me and knows he can trap me into some fancy line or doing something dumb.
B) He didnt really know what to do so he just... kind of bet and decided to go from there.

So since he was in speculative B mode (I think), I tried to think if there was any way to stir the obscure juices in his head into getting away from something foldable. I didn't think the stars were aligned right for him to fold to a flop push but a turn line might cloud his mind with doubt and get something going for me. It was really very scientific.

Maybe this was too table/timing/feel dependent to have a good discussion on. It's probably better to just push the flop and say "dont f*** with my preflop raises" and go from there, since it cant possibly be much worse EV wise (all lines are close here). But just playing gorilla-style straightforward makes me wince, and my poker fetish is finding lines like this to earn chips in a way that noone else has thought of. Sometimes I'm wrong and just find a new way to spew chips, but hey, if i can find every way to screw up a hand, I should get pretty good at this game.

Next time I'll hit the turn.

Everett

<font color="white"> He thought for like 15 seconds and called with AK. My jaw hits the floor, and that was that. </font>

[Sam T.]

I've had some good success with this play, but under somewhat different circumstances. I find it's really useful out of the blinds in an unraised pot. The usual dynamic:

-I have two cards, and I miss a ragged flop.
-It's checked to button (or whoever is last to act), who makes a probe bet to try to take down the pot.
-Hero calls, and if it's heads up, bets out on the turn.
-Button folds.

Granted this kind of play only works against a weak-tighty, the kind of guy who will bet 1/6 of the pot in order to take it down. A CR might work as well but the check-call, bet the turn line gives you more FE.

In this case, it's a toughie. Villain definately played it weird. In your shoes, with a raised pot and all, I'd like this betting pattern if you had something other than the overs, a mid-pair would work for me.