Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Pre-Flop

[dmk]

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Do you call or raise? If you raise, to what?


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Given the current description, I raise to 275-300.
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Since most players usually raise with AK in this spot, under what scenarios would you just limp and why?


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If the table has been very active (almost always raised preflop, regardless of limpers, etc), I will try to limp/re-raise all-in w/ this stack.
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If you raise and get re-raised, what's your plan (which obviously could depend on which player re-raises you)?

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less than 2k: i'm getting my chips in
more than 2k: w/out reads, if its a push, i try to fold. if its a very small raise that leaves room to play on the flop, i might call. it depends on whether there are ppl left to act, if i'm in position, etc. i'm not too keen on going for broke PF against a 2k+ stack here

[Lloyd]

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Raise to 300 and I'm calling all-in/pushing versus a raise.

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So if an uber-tight player pushes you're calling?

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I thought we have no strong reads?

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You are correct but given there was no reference to that in the post I responded to I took that to mean the original poster would call all-in/push 100% of the time without considering any reads.

Also, I will not be making any post that will reveal what happens further on in the hand. So if I ask what do you do if somebody raises, it has no bearing on the future of the hand.

I like to raise to 350 here. I agree with the panel about calling an all in from one of the short stacks. I probably push if I get re-raised here, if I have any sort of a read and feel like he's got less than KK.

[Sam T.]

When I saw this subject line I was very happy. Thanks Lloyd!

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So without further adieu:

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I raise to t300. The only way I might limp is if players to my left have been extremely aggressive against limpers, and I was pretty sure I would get raised by hands that I beat. I've no interest in playing this in a limp-fest, but if I've got pwners left to act, BINGO.

Reaction to a re-raise:

It depends on the position of the raiser and my read. Most reasonable re-raises (I make it t300, he makes it t800) will get me very close to pot committed. I do not want to cold-call for 1/3 of my stack, and then deal with the choice between check-folding a missed flop or betting into a monster with Ace-high. If I get a raise from an unknown or a LAG and he has position, I'll shove and have him make a decision.

If it comes from a tight, tough player, it may be worth a lay-down, ala HOHII. That said, if I think I can check-raise him off his hand on a ragged flop, I'll consider calling and going that route.

If the raise is out of the blinds, I'll consider a call to see a flop in position, and play poker from there.

Adieu, mon frere.

[Lloyd]

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I agree with the panel about calling an all in from one of the short stacks.

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How do you agree with the panel when the panel has not yet spoken?

[woodguy]

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I like limping here. You have three stacks behind you that should jam with a pretty large array of hands even after a limper or two. If raised I obviously re-raise all-in.

As silly as it sounds, if the pot remains limped and you flop top pair, you risk going broke against a wide array of hands but you also have an opportunity to double up against a weaker ace that no one would put you on. At this stage of the tournament with our stack I'm willing to take that risk.

Certainly a standard raise is ok too but we have an awkward stack size with which to play AK with after the flop.

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I've been taking this line more recently with reasonable success.

It allows for a limp re-raise which represents AA, but if you get called you are usually not dominated, and putting in the last raise is always part of my goal in any hand.

You must be carefull when it gets limped around and you will have to fold TPTK to heavy action, but Ax <K pays you off nicely in a lot of spots.

You also can avoid tying yourself to the pot OOP when you whiff.

I know some guys like Adanthar are good enough not to *always* have to fire a a wiffed flop when they were the PFR, and therefore keep the cost of the hand down, but often AK can cost too much when you are OOP and have more than 1 to act behind you and you feel that you *have* to take a shot on the flop because you were the PFR.

Also, if you do raise PF, get called and hit an A or K you rarely get paid off. If you raise AK PF and hit TPTK and get action you are often beat at this level.

Raising here is fine, but I don't think limping is as bad as many would say. Especially if you are comfortable with your post flop play.

In fact I would go as far as saying if you can play well post flop, you can make just as much (if not more) limping AK in EP as raising, and lose much less.

Regards,
Woodguy

[KneeCo]

Standard 3x raise here is the best play IMO, I personally never open-limp from EP unless it's a lower buy-in and I have a middle pocket pair and am confident I wont get reraised pre-flop.
If I were to open-limp in this tourny, it wouldn't be with AKo, though if I had a real aggressive table I might do it with AA-KK if I thought the caliber of play wasn't so high that the move would be transparant and I would be then able to reraise all-in before the flop.

So I raise to 300, looking to flop TPTK.

Now, if I get re-raised pf.

If MP, MP+1 or CO raise me all-in pf and there are no callers, unless I have a read indicating otherise, I call (if they raise me less than all-in I re-raise). I feel they are looking to double up with less than 15 BBs and their range for a push extends to include 88-QQ, and I have odds to take the coin-flip, and hands I dominate like AQ and perhaps AJs.

If a pf re-raise comes from a larger stack, the decision is obviously complicated. Assuming I get re-raised to 900, if the re-raise comes from one of the blinds, I would be inclined to call it and play position after the flop.
If the re-raise comes from anywhere else, I think I'd have to at least consider pushing pre-flop. For instance say the button raises to 900 and now it's 600 for me to call, I would be tempted to re-raise and try to pick it up right there.

If I get re-raised all-in by a stack large than mine and there is one or more callers, I would be inclined to muck my hand. I'll still have over 20 BBs so there is no urgency and I feel that with a re-raise and a call, I am probably beat.

Finally, if I get re-raised all-in by a stack larger than mine and there is no caller, and assuming I have no real reads, I could go either way. Since I don't have a read on the villain, I would base my decision on my skill relative to the field. Am I a good enough player to outplay these guys and make the final table even if I don't get the best cards all the time? If so, I might muck. Conversely, if I feel I'm going to need to get lucky to get deep in this thing, I would probably try to double up this hand.

EDIT: lol, when I started typing this I think there were 1 or 2 replies after the OP (didn't read 'em), in the time it took me to write this reply, this thread grew 2 pages long.

[2005]

I make it 275, if I get re-raised, I'm pushing. I pretty much never fold AK in Party 100 tourneys especially with only 26BB.

[Yuv]

I don't think it's a very interesting pre-flop hand, barring no reads. I raise to 300-350 and insta-call a push my MP, MP1 and CO.

Without any other read, I'd probably call any push. Keeping in mind that I'm no gigabet, and I don't really mind taking coinflips. If I had his post-flop abilities, that might change.

[ZeroPointMachine]

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I am always raising this to 275 or 300

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andathar,

I've noticed from reading your bodog 100K thread (which was awesome by the way... hope you post more of these) that you like to raise slightly below 3xBB in these spots. Any reasoning behind this or just a habit? Is it perhaps part of your intention to keep the pots small?

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I got that from Fossilman's posts way back in the day...yes, it's a means of keeping the pot smaller, makes folding to a reraise easier, plus some other things. Search the archives for Greg's post (somebody have the name?)


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I also like the smaller raise(225-275). In addition to adanthar's points, I think a smaller raise from UTG tends to represent a monster looking for action and can get folds(or at least calls instead of raises) from tight players with middle pairs.

I would really like to read that Fossilman post if someone finds it.