Anyone else think empire should make a move

[Precision1C]

I think Empire should make a move also. Their site has been based on a high rake fish filled enviroment and they seem to be sucessful in it. Trying to switch to a low rake, low expenses enviroment with game filled full of tight players like UB, FT, and PS seems kind of desperate. After all instead of competing with Party for fish they will compete with the likes of PS that currently has low end rake, great software, and good CS. The one thing PS lacks is lots of fish, that is why I play on bad, buggy interfaces with Aboo the CS guy from India who responds with form letters. I also get a bonus to play on Party and that keeps me coming back again and again. What I am suggesting is that to competely change strategies to compete with great sites and great software is likely poor. By changing the Noble poker network into a heavily advertised network with bonuses and promotions you can draw in the fish and compete with a site that has bad CS, and buggy software which will make you look good in comparison even with significant flaws. Not to mention your current clients like that enviroment and you can even up the rake later after establishing the network. This rake increase will cover the significant advertising costs, promotional cost, and software development costs that get incurred during the early period where you are fighting it out for players with Party. To try to fight an established site like PS with the battle cry of low rake would be uphill and to win would have have to heavily promote the network which would kill their profit with the halved rake.

[Precision1C]

Why do people have fire engine red Porsches? It isn't as if you can go more than 75mphs anyway and even a crappy 95 Toyota hatchback can do that. Yet people pay 5X the cost and their insurance premiums are incredible. Kind of stupid isn't it for something that won't get you to your destination any faster. Now lets say we offer people with fire engine red Porsches FREE 95 Toyota hatchbacks with half price insurance as long as they sell their Porsches and have to drive their new boring car, how many would take the deal? IMO fish think of rake in this way, just another marginal cost of playing clearly losing poker for enjoyment. After all the fish isn't planning ahead wondering about the EV of playing at this site versus that site. Convenience is more significant than price to many reasonable people in the world. Many just want a site where they can always find a decent game at their limt without waiting long and are willing to ignore the fact that they will pay an extra 10 or 20 bucks in rake over the course of a hour. After all if the fish was worried about 10 or 20 bucks wouldn't he either improve or move down till he could win instead of playing like a donkey? The people who would change their play location to a site with low rake, few promotions, and low numbers of fish are sharks. Some people do well in a TAG enviroment, they are welcome to play on Absolute to their heart content : ). Me, I like playing with people who are a bit clueless and am willing to pay a bit extra in rake to do so. There is nothing quite a stud game where you tell the other player I can beat their Q high flush 5 times on the river and they keep raising until you get worried about a submarine FH or a hand that can beat your AK flush and call.

[Ianco15]

You need to understand that the customer base of party either doesn't know/care about the rake. That's the truth, bottom line. Period.

[Seether]

The midlimit games are still good. Empire isnt dying. Get over it.

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
You need to understand that the customer base of party either doesn't know/care about the rake. That's the truth, bottom line. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well put. Most recreational players are there to have fun. Many don't even know what rake is, and those that do don't really think it affects anything in the long run. The consumer is not informed. That is not being mean, or demeaning, just realisitic.

I will be the first to jump to the defense of the recreational player. It always sounds little like nails on a chalkboard when people refer to them in a dismissive and derogatory manner, using terms like "fish" and "donkey" over and over. Most of them are decent, hard working people who play poker for fun and like the action -- they certainly aren't bad people, or stupid. They just aren't any damn good at poker, and they don't know anything about it.

They aren't looking for the best "deal", they are looking for the best time. Yes they are looking for a product, but it's not based on anything to do with money. Their motivations are different.

[Precision1C]

I whole heartedly agree about not calling people fish and donkey at the table. That is strictly negative EV because you're spoiling the experience for the "action" player who giving you money to enjoy playing poker. If they suck out on you it pays to just grit your teeth if you can't say nh. However after having AAx beaten 4 out of 5 times at stud and getting 333 run down by 677 who had to call 4 bets on 4th street is kind of aggravating and the way I stay sane is thinking "fish fish fish" and that comes out in these posts.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]

Discounted services has worked in every major industry in the world. I named car insurance and motels, but this applies to every major industry

[/ QUOTE ]


I've mentioned this before but I'll bring it up again (because I'm a repetitive kind of guy).

Poker is different from all those other industries in a VERY important way.
In most normal industries (gas prices, groceries, airline fare, etc etc) the consumer IMMEDIATELY can see the difference in price.

If I want to fly to NY and see that one airline is charging $250 while another is charging $350 then I can IMMEDIATELY see how much I save.


In poker...the typical customer (re: fish) knows absolutely nothing about the difference and doesn't care.
You can even spell it out for him and explain how much he would save if only they just took $1 less out of each pot.
You can give him EXACT figures.
He will say "whatever. I don't care. It's only a dollar. It's not a big deal."


THEN....you can give him a $100 bonus and he'll say "whoopeee!!!!!! This is great!!!!!"



Anybody who has played with fish should be able to understand that the fish just don't freaking care...and that most can't even be taught to care.


This is why I have always argued against those who have said that the increasing competition for customers would help drive the rake down....and it's why Empire would NOT be better off lowering the rake.

I wouldn't complain if they did of course.
But if they cut their rake in half there is just NO WAY that they will make up for it by doubling their player-base.


Naturally, I wouldn't argue with them if this is the course of action they wanted to take.
But for THEM to succeed I don't think this is their best course.


Then again, these are the same geniuses that came up with the VIP-points system (with that whle square-root nonsense that actually DISCOURAGES you from playing more on a given day) as well as banning players without warning that they could have kept around if they had more clearly defined what they wanted out of their players who pursue the bonuses that THEY are offering.

So Empire has proven to be pretty freaking stupid in the past.
So lowering rake, raising rake, offering an Empire embroidered tutu or giving away crappo money-clips in the mail are ALL equally possible from these geniuses.

[uncleshady]

To solve the dilemma party had with all the high end players playing on the skins, they took the fish away.

Now we are going to market Empire to the fish by telling them the rake is cheaper? Wont work (like has been said)

The solution for Empire is to BECOME Party. Become the flagship skin and advertise like a mofo. Fish like advertising, rake whatever you want, but they like cool TV ads.

[SinCityGuy]

You make some good points, Bob.

Also, I don't care how much Empire reduces the rake or continues rakeback, there's just no way to offset the extra BB's/100 expectation of playing on much softer tables at Party. The problem that Empire faces in trying to keep their base is almost impossible. The vast majority of players on there are much more skilled than the Party players. Making an extra 0.5 BB/100 with rakeback or lower rake on Empire doesn't even come close to offsetting that.

If you go to the Vegas strip, you can find some very bad rake structures out there. These card rooms are just as full as ones with better rake structure. Same with a Blackjack game. Minor rule changes increase the casino profit by a few % and the average player doesn't notice. Don't decrease rake, increase rakeback. It will have the same effect as a tax return at the end of the year. Make it automatic and advertise it as cashback for playing every month.