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  #1  
Old 05-13-2005, 08:59 AM
UMTerp UMTerp is offline
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Default Postflop play with AKs

A friend was asking me about this hand, and I thought some of you could learn from it - I'll post my response I gave to him in a little while once some discussion is going on this thread. There's a specific concept I'm trying to illustrate here, which us SNGers don't get to apply too often due to the nature of our tourneys. What would your advice to my friend be?
------------------------------------------

"$5+$0.50 Stars SNG, 5 of 9 players are left.

I'm in 4th of 5 w/about 1800 (you start w/1500). BB is smallest stack. SB has about 2800. Big Stack is around 7000. Blinds are 75-150.

I get dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on the button, and the two bigger stacks fold to me. I consider pushing but think I'll just get the blinds and I'm looking for more, so I make it 600 to go. SB calls and BB folds. The flop comes K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB checks, how much should I bet?"
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  #2  
Old 05-13-2005, 09:24 AM
Domer Domer is offline
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Default Re: Postflop play with AKs

So you have 1200 left and you've already committed 1/3 of your stack to a pot of 1350. I'd push.
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  #3  
Old 05-13-2005, 09:28 AM
UMTerp UMTerp is offline
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Default Re: Postflop play with AKs

[ QUOTE ]
Loc: Bowie, MD

[/ QUOTE ]

We're neighbors!! And we're both engineers!! Weird.
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  #4  
Old 05-13-2005, 09:36 AM
Unarmed Unarmed is offline
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Default Re: Postflop play with AKs

Zero.
You're just way too short.
QJ is seeing the whole board even if you push this, and if you bet some small amount and fold to a push you just made a huge mistake.

So, you're losing your stack to a ten. You're losing your stack to QJ if an A or 9 falls. Forget about those hands and concentrate on getting the max from lower PP and weaker aces. That involves checking the flop.

IMHO, of course. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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  #5  
Old 05-13-2005, 09:41 AM
gumpzilla gumpzilla is offline
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Default Re: Postflop play with AKs

For a second, I thought you were actually advocating folding here, and I was going to go bananas. However, reading it a little more carefully, you're advocating what I'm advocating, which is checking behind.

There's no point in betting here. QJ is the only draw out there at this point that he needs to be afraid of, and QJ probably bets if it's around, so I don't think we need to worry about it. So then we're in the ever popular "way ahead/way behind" scenario, and the best way to get paid here is to try and goad the opponent into betting for us. I'll check behind on the flop and again on the turn and let my betting come on the river; this plan possibly changes if another broadway comes, since then it is much more likely that my opponent made a good enough hand to call a turn bet or has picked up a draw that I need to make unattractive.
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  #6  
Old 05-13-2005, 09:44 AM
UMTerp UMTerp is offline
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Default Re: Postflop play with AKs

Yeah, Unarmed and gumpzilla nailed it. I'm almost positive that's the right play here. It's a concept the guys on the MTT forum know well, but it rarely applies to our SNGs because we're in push/fold mode all the time, and I think often times we miss an opportunity to gain some chips when we react without thinking. Most people's initial reaction would be "Oooh - good flop, push it!!"

Well, here was my response to him, and I'll be the first to admit that I'm not always thinking this clearly when I'm multitabling:

"I'd have just pushed preflop - at the $5's you'll get a lot of callers with weaker aces even for your whole stack, but you didn't. No biggie.

This is one rare case in a SNG where it's going to be OK to slowplay your hand - they don't come around too often. You're obviously not folding this hand no matter what, and it's a "way ahead / way behind" situation. The only way either of you have a significant number of outs is if he's holding QJ, and even then, he only has 7, and you have redraws on that.

If he has an underpair, he has two outs. If he has a ten, you have two outs. If he has AX or undercards, he's drawing nearly dead. The most likely scenario is that he has nothing, but he already has a lot of chips invested in this pot, and it's likely he'll try to make a play at it. You may not get anything more if you lead out. Just check-call til the river, and if he hasn't offered any chips by then, bet a third of the pot or so and see if he bites."


This concept would mainly apply to Levels 3 and 4 I'd think. Of course, he's like "I pushed and the other guy had ATo, is there anything I could have done?" *sigh*
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  #7  
Old 05-13-2005, 09:55 AM
gumpzilla gumpzilla is offline
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Default Re: Postflop play with AKs

[ QUOTE ]

This concept would mainly apply to Levels 3 and 4 I'd think. Of course, he's like "I pushed and the other guy had ATo, is there anything I could have done?" *sigh*

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it takes people a while to realize that when the stacks are this short, there really isn't anything you can do here, so that's a pretty predictable response. Make sure you communicate to him that if he doesn't get stacked here he's definitely folding way too much.
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  #8  
Old 05-13-2005, 09:57 AM
Domer Domer is offline
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Default Re: Postflop play with AKs

OK, maybe pushing was a little too straight-forward, but I'm not sure I like the idea of giving two free cards here. I feel like you've at least got to put a small bet (300?) in, and if he reads that for weakness and pushes, so be it. (Also, if he folds, then the chances of him even having a draw to a decent hand were pretty slim.)

And UMTerps, that is a weird wild coincidence.
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  #9  
Old 05-13-2005, 10:09 AM
gumpzilla gumpzilla is offline
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Default Re: Postflop play with AKs

The entire point of this play is that you lose essentially nothing by giving free cards in this situation because a) you're way ahead of him and he has 2 outs, in which case it's quite unlikely that he is going to hit, so giving free cards is relatively harmless, b) you're way behind and are actually benefitting by giving that card. Notice how different the situation becomes if the flop is K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Now with the flush draw out there, this logic isn't as good and you should probably bet to protect your hand against the flush draw.

Many players will take a swing at this board if you show no interest in it by checking. You have a pretty big hand and you'd really like to get paid as much as possible. Betting right now is probably not going to get called except by a T or another K. Some opponents, if you do make a weak enough looking bet, will try blasting over the top of you here (I'll certainly do that from time to time), so that's not necessarily a bad play but it's going to be more read dependent than the line that was suggested.
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  #10  
Old 05-13-2005, 10:10 AM
Unarmed Unarmed is offline
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Default Re: Postflop play with AKs

No, pushing isn't terrible.
If you're beat here you are beat, so don't worry about that. Any T will push at some point given your stack depth and you will have to call.

If Villain will call the push with 22-99 and QJ then I don't mind it one bit. You do lose value from the type of player who will bluff lead the turn or river.

I actually don't like checking to the river because it lets off the lower PPs and QJ too easily. I'd rather bet the turn and river for 300 each as even Ace high will probably make crying calls at the $5s. QJ will likely come over the top of the turn bet, another nice sde benefit.
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