I need to wean myself back off these 86's.

[MarkGritter]

I've been getting somewhat laggy lately. Entering with 862xx is probably not so good here.

On the third round I could have reraised and tried to force a break. But I decided to apply the Howard Lederer principle instead.

----------------------------------------------------------------

$2/$4 Triple Draw 2-7 at UltimateBet

mgritter is at seat 0 with $200.25.
Villian is at seat 3 with $192.75.
The button is at seat 2.

Villian posts the small blind of $1.
BB posts the big blind of $2.

mgritter: 8d Js Ts 6h 2h

First Round:

A folds. mgritter raises to $4. B folds. C folds. Villian calls. BB folds.

Villian takes 2 cards. mgritter takes 2 cards.

mgritter: 8d 6h 2h Ah 4c

Second Round:

Villian checks. mgritter bets $2. Villian calls.

Villian takes 2 cards. mgritter takes 1 card.

mgritter: 8d 6h 2h 4c Jd

Third Round:

Villian checks. mgritter bets $4. Villian raises to $8. mgritter calls.

Villian stands pat. mgritter takes 1 card.

mgritter: 8d 6h 2h 4c Ks

Final Round:

Villian bets $4. mgritter calls.



Showdown:

Villian shows 7s 7d 4d 3h 3d.
Villian has two pair, sevens and threes.
mgritter shows Ks 8d 6h 4c 2h.
mgritter has K 8 6 4 2.


Hand Summary:

$1.75 is raked from a pot of $38.
mgritter wins $36.25 with K 8 6 4 2.
----------------------------------------------------------------

I don't mind folding to the check raise - against most staightforward players anyway.

[randomstumbl]

This seems really straightforward. You could do a couple things differently, but the way you played it was fine. You could raise on the end and you could try to force a break. Either is fine as long as you do it in moderation.

Really though, people are allowed to bluff you occasionally. It's not a big deal. There isn't anything glaringly wrong with how you played this unless this guy had been going crazy.

And this isn't LAG, you only raised once [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[somapopper]

862xx is the 2 card draw cutoff though between a clear open raise and a clear fold, right? As such, I'd be inclined to believe that a. the decision between raising with it and folding with it are very close b. playing it or not is table dependant and positional.

On a related note, do any of you ever open limp, I do sometimes, but I don't feel very good about it.

[randomstumbl]

[ QUOTE ]
862xx is the 2 card draw cutoff though between a clear open raise and a clear fold, right? As such, I'd be inclined to believe that a. the decision between raising with it and folding with it are very close b. playing it or not is table dependant and positional.

On a related note, do any of you ever open limp, I do sometimes, but I don't feel very good about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I first started playing TDL, I thought you had to play using starting hand charts. I was wrong.

It's much more important to figure out how to play well after the draw. As long as you're not playing total garbage, you can make up for any small edge later in the hand against most opponents.

Edited to add: what do you gain by open limping? Are you trying to let your opponents know when your hand sucks or do you let them know when you've got a really good hand? I can't think of a game other than o/8 where open limping accomplishes anything you want it to.

[MarkGritter]

[ QUOTE ]
862xx is the 2 card draw cutoff though between a clear open raise and a clear fold, right? As such, I'd be inclined to believe that a. the decision between raising with it and folding with it are very close b. playing it or not is table dependant and positional.

[/ QUOTE ]

For me, position is the key consideration. I wouldn't feel bad at all raising to enter with 863 on the button. In early position, your callers are probably going to be drawing more smoothly than you are. Against good opponents, even better draws like 842 may suffer. I feel I don't adjust well enough to playing with a rougher hand than my opponents, particularly OOP.

[ QUOTE ]

On a related note, do any of you ever open limp, I do sometimes, but I don't feel very good about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Almost never. In some cases I will limp if the pot has already been opened. I usually play hands like 227 or 772 on the button for one bet if there are two limpers in already. Which is a good illustration of why you don't want to open-limp. Even poor draws have too much equity to let in cheaply, particularly if they will have position on you.

Even a one-card draw (like 2TJQK) makes a 98 or better more than 1/3 of the time (though admittedly because of the small pot the BB has to fold a lot on the 2nd round anyway.)

Sometimes I misclick. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I've thought about experimenting with a mixed strategy of limping weak and strong hands, but it's simpler just to fold or to play all draws the same. There probably is only marginal benefit to playing the additional weak hands/playing them more cheaply or attracting action with strong ones.

[MarkGritter]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't mind folding to the check raise - against most staightforward players anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I have trouble folding sometimes (OK, fairly often). What I took away from the Lederer article is that it's better to break and call rather than just call down, if you're going to get stubborn. This hand isn't a great one to get stubborn with.

[timprov]

[ QUOTE ]

Edited to add: what do you gain by open limping? Are you trying to let your opponents know when your hand sucks or do you let them know when you've got a really good hand? I can't think of a game other than o/8 where open limping accomplishes anything you want it to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most games have situations where open-limping is a good idea. While I've never run into it in a TD cash game, there have been times for it in the 24h tournaments. The reason we don't openlimp much in TD is twofold:

1) It's 6-max.
2) There aren't many hands that benefit greatly from huge multiway pots, and those that do are too good to give away.

We just don't have hands similar to small pairs/Axs in holdem or KQJs in stud, where you'd like to let everyone in cheap and punish them later.