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#11
12-05-2004, 02:20 AM
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Re: You know, I think at LL, people actually *like* calling raises.
[ QUOTE ]
It is of course frustrating when you're trying to protect AA or KK and you've got 5 people chasing you, but one has to just keep reminding oneself that it's a great position to be in. What are you talking about? I want people to call when I have AA and KK preflop. What are you protecting, your chance to steal the blinds? There's nothing worth protecting because your ev is more than the blinds. [/ QUOTE ] What the hell are you talking about? Protecting your hand isn't just preflop you know. 
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#12
12-05-2004, 02:41 AM
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Re: You know, I think at LL, people actually *like* calling raises.
I actually had this happen at a $4/$8 game I was playing while waiting for the $10/$20 to open up. The player actually, and I quote, "I'll fold, oh, it was raised? I'll call then!"
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#13
12-05-2004, 10:42 AM
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Re: You know, I think at LL, people actually *like* calling raises.
[ QUOTE ]
It's really rather perverse. I have noticed that at anything below about 5-10, you're almost inviting people to cold call you PF when you raise. Hands that I see people normally fold I see them call with when a raise is in front of them. I think they get excited by the potential for action if they bust a big hand or something. It's really bizarre. [/ QUOTE ] I get this too. Sometimes I notice the guy to my left is calling about 80% of my raises. So I look at his VP$IP and it's around 20-25%. Suddenly 50-60% of his hands that he would normally fold now look good when I raise? It seems like their plan is to hope to flop a pair, and if not, call anyway unless an Ace, King or sometimes a Queen, flops. Sometimes I feel like (apart from pairs), AJ is a more profitable holding against these guys, because they will call to the river on a Jack high flop and then call the river bet if they paired somewhere. I'm not complaining about this; I suppose it's just that whatever thought process is going through their mind is just so odd to me. Edit: I want to add that I am seeing this at 5/10 and 10/20. In these games even when someone cold-calls, there is a fairly good chance it will wind up a heads-up flop, and this is important for our cold-caller's "strategy".
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#14
12-05-2004, 11:13 AM
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Close to the \"correct\" Strategy
"It seems like their plan is to hope to flop a pair, and if not, call anyway unless an Ace, King or sometimes a Queen, flops."
Close, but the strategy is even more perverse. They want to hit two pair. So when the flop comes Axx, they want to have the xx and crack your AK with two pair. Of course, if the flop comes xxx, they figure you must have pocket AA, but the strategy still works the same. They are usually willing to go all the way to the river, if they hit one of their x's, waiting for the second x to hit. That is why hands of 94o, T6o, etc. are so popular. A flop of K 9 6 rainbow, is something an "any-two-card-will-do" player can really "agressively" check/call with when they have 96o against your AK.
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#15
12-05-2004, 11:19 AM
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Re: You know, I think at LL, people actually *like* calling raises.
One difficulty in evaluating the hypothesis that raises entice players to call is that there is a perceptual bias which causes most of us to overestimate the frequency with which opponents call our raises. Someone cold-calling your raise is a more memorable event than someone folding to your raise.
For this reason, your PT data is helpful. You may not have a large enough sample size to make a valid comparison of a player's VP$IP with their preflop cold-calling frequency. Even if so, however, I think valid conclusions could be reached by comparing the quality of hands with which a player has cold-called and showed down with their VP$IP. Perhaps you could share a sample of your evidence. -MJS
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#16
12-05-2004, 11:54 AM
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Re: Close to the \"correct\" Strategy
[ QUOTE ]
They want to hit two pair. [/ QUOTE ] I'm sure they want to hit two pair. Or a straight, flush, full house, etc. But for a lot of these guys one overcard or a backdoor draw (and sometimes not even that much) is enough to continue after the flop. And I am not talking about SB vs BB or steal situations. I'm thinking of times I raise from EP or MP, get one cold caller, and everyone else folds. I don't have any stats on this, so I guess it's just conjecture, a little selective memory, and a little of the "you only get to see the hands that beat you" factor. I just find it very odd when someone with not so horrible stats (low 20's VP$IP, post-flop AF ~1.5) turns into a calling station with J9o and a no pair, no draw flop for him.
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#17
12-05-2004, 01:00 PM
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Re: You know, I think at LL, people actually *like* calling raises.
Sometimes I tell them I have a big pair and I want to build a huge pot for someone. They grit their teeth and think about the 20+ BB pot they will have a shot at if they all cooperate and call all bets raises. They win three between them and I win one just for me. I like it!
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#18
12-05-2004, 01:29 PM
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Re: You know, I think at LL, people actually *like* calling raises.
[ QUOTE ]
It is of course frustrating when you're trying to protect AA or KK and you've got 5 people chasing you, but one has to just keep reminding oneself that it's a great position to be in. What are you talking about? I want people to call when I have AA and KK preflop. What are you protecting, your chance to steal the blinds? There's nothing worth protecting because your ev is more than the blinds. [ QUOTE ] What the hell are you talking about? Protecting your hand isn't just preflop you know. [/ QUOTE ] [/ QUOTE ] Yes, but if 5-6 people are chasing your AA or KK post-flop it is because they made huge pre-flop mistakes of which you were the principal beneficiary. Now on later rounds you may or may not be able to "protect" your hand because of the size of the pot, but the bloated pot resulting from pre-flop action when you have these monster hands absolutely increases your overall +EV for these hands even if it may lead to a slightly lower winrate for them.
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#19
12-05-2004, 01:35 PM
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Re: You know, I think at LL, people actually *like* calling raises.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] It is of course frustrating when you're trying to protect AA or KK and you've got 5 people chasing you, but one has to just keep reminding oneself that it's a great position to be in. What are you talking about? I want people to call when I have AA and KK preflop. What are you protecting, your chance to steal the blinds? There's nothing worth protecting because your ev is more than the blinds. [ QUOTE ] What the hell are you talking about? Protecting your hand isn't just preflop you know. [/ QUOTE ] [/ QUOTE ] Yes, but if 5-6 people are chasing your AA or KK post-flop it is because they made huge pre-flop mistakes of which you were the principal beneficiary. Now on later rounds you may or may not be able to "protect" your hand because of the size of the pot, but the bloated pot resulting from pre-flop action when you have these monster hands absolutely increases your overall +EV for these hands even if it may lead to a slightly lower winrate for them. [/ QUOTE ] NO WAY! Really?
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#20
12-05-2004, 02:01 PM
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Re: You know, I think at LL, people actually *like* calling raises.
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, but if 5-6 people are chasing your AA or KK post-flop it is because they made huge pre-flop mistakes of which you were the principal beneficiary. Now on later rounds you may or may not be able to "protect" your hand because of the size of the pot, but the bloated pot resulting from pre-flop action when you have these monster hands absolutely increases your overall +EV for these hands even if it may lead to a slightly lower winrate for them. [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] NO WAY! Really? [/ QUOTE ] WAY!!!! [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]
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