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| View Poll Results: What would you do? | |||
| Go on a killing spree |
   
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33 | 44.00% |
| Move to a state that allows it |
  
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34 | 45.33% |
| Quit |
  
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8 | 10.67% |
| Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll | |||
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#21
11-11-2005, 04:27 PM
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Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
I hate raising 22 here, for a lot of the reasons mentioned in this thread.
I complete/fold with 22, or complete/call if I think I have implied odds on a set -- i.e., if the villain will bluff to the river, or if villain will put in a lot of chips if he hits a pair. Raising this OOP seems silly to me, because 22 is absolutely useless on more than 85% of flops. You are very rarely going to have more than 2 outs if you miss, and your attempt to steal the pot on the flop is going to need to be much bigger because of the preflop raise. Standards get lowered in blind battles -- which may help you get paid off when you have a set, but will also get you in very uncomfortable biggish pots where villain won't fold his middle pair because he doesn't believe you. How far are you willing to follow through with a bluff on a missed flop? I see no need to play a pot here. Complete the SB. If he checks, lead out on any flop... for the size of the pot, a measly 2BB. EDIT: for an example of how you can end up in an overly big pot with an underpair and no idea of where you are in the hand, see OP. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] 
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#22
11-11-2005, 04:28 PM
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Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
[ QUOTE ]
--I can't see folding preflop to villian's raise as some have chosen in the quiz...[due to the 5/10 rule...] [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] --Do we contest the pot is the other big question....and that's why I think we should contest it with a c/r. [/ QUOTE ] 5/10 rule is nice for when you're thinking about implied odds. When you start getting FPS and splashing around with 22 OOP, suddenly the 5/10 preflop rule is irrelevant. You might as well be splashing around with any two. You're in a situation where, if you get played back at, you know you're beat. So you're splashing around with air. Therefore, it doesn't really matter if you have 22 of 83, you're just bluffing into a vacuum. And thats why I don't like playing this hand to begin with. If you think you have enough implied odds to set mine, then set mine. But don't set mine with the 5/10 rule AND start splashing around. (FWIW, if you ARE going to get involved, I think leading or check/raising is best because it's aggressive. But folding is better than both.)
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#23
11-11-2005, 04:34 PM
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Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
Skuzzy,
As you realize, a lot of the time you run this play you will flop nothing and have to fold to any resistance. Therefore, your own hand is irrelevant. You could be doing it with 27 just the same as 22. 22 has the advantage of occasionally flopping a set. But there is an inherant problem in your thinking. You are running this bluff because you want to win the pot uncontested, but you also want to build a big pot for when you hit a set. Well, you can't have it both ways. On the other hand, why not run this play with JT? Now you have six cards that can give you a winner, not to mention the straight potential. And since it's headsup, kicker problems aren't much of a worry. Much better than running it with 22.
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#24
11-11-2005, 04:35 PM
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Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
[ QUOTE ]
Skuzzy, As you realize, a lot of the time you run this play you will flop nothing and have to fold to any resistance. Therefore, your own hand is irrelevant. You could be doing it with 27 just the same as 22. 22 has the advantage of occasionally flopping a set. But there is an inherant problem in your thinking. You are running this bluff because you want to win the pot uncontested, but you also want to build a big pot for when you hit a set. Well, you can't have it both ways. On the other hand, why not run this play with JT? Now you have six cards that can give you a winner, not to mention the straight potential. And since it's headsup, kicker problems aren't much of a worry. Much better than running it with 22. [/ QUOTE ] yep
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#25
11-11-2005, 04:44 PM
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Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
[ QUOTE ]
EDIT: for an example of how you can end up in an overly big pot with an underpair and no idea of where you are in the hand, see OP. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] nh, sir. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
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#26
11-11-2005, 04:55 PM
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Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
[ QUOTE ]
5/10 rule is nice for when you're thinking about implied odds. When you start getting FPS and splashing around with 22 OOP, suddenly the 5/10 preflop rule is irrelevant. You might as well be splashing around with any two. [/ QUOTE ] Well, that's exactly what the 5/10 rule is for -- implied odds. We are calling $2.50 here. We flop a set 12% of the time, 7.5:1. 2.50 x 7.5 = $18.75. This is what we need to make to make the call worthwhile. There's $4.50 in the pot, we need $14.25 more from villian. We know he always CB's so we know we are going to get nearer that if he has air. If he catches a piece, we should be able to get above that easily. As it was played, he had an overpair to the board. If the board came 952 instead of 953, we should be set to make quite a bit here. And I don't see any FPS here. We have a pair HU. If we c/r his potential flop CB, we are seeing if we have the best hand or not. If we don't, we will know it if he calls or raises. After the c/r we don't put any more money in the middle. There's not a ton of flops to do this with, but I think that this is one of them. Very good comments from you Fink. You're making me think more about this hand.
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#28
11-11-2005, 05:03 PM
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Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
Let me try to explain this a bit better. Not sure I did a good enough job.
My point is that you are mixing two concepts. Using the 5/10 rule and set mining is very straightfoward math, which you wrote out nicely. It's easy to determine whether the situation is +EV or -EV. When you start playing UI postflop, it's not straightfoward math. Now, you're playing some real poker. So it's much harder to figure out if it's +EV or -EV. So my point is that if you think playing this pot UI is +EV, then you call the preflop raise because it's +EV and play the pot. If you think set mining is +EV, then call and set mine. But don't call and set mine because the 5/10 rule tells you to, and then go ahead and play the pot UI anyway. That's mixing two concepts. Personally, I think playing this pot UI is -EV. If you think it's +EV then go ahead and play it. But justify playing the pot because it was +EV to begin with, not because of 5/10.
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#29
11-11-2005, 05:25 PM
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Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
[ QUOTE ]
My point is that you are mixing two concepts..... But justify playing the pot because it was +EV to begin with, not because of 5/10. [/ QUOTE ] OK, I'm understanding your point. My error was justifying the call according to 5/10. Instead of saying you have the 13th best hand possible, call and play some pokah. I know we call with pp's according to 5/10 preflop alot. And most often we c/f if we don't hit our set. But there are those cases where you end up playing poker after the flop without a set. For example, 66 on a 457 flop, 99 on an 842 flop, or TT on a 555 flop. Yeah, we end up mixing concepts in these cases, but how is that a bad thing? Are we just semantically off here?
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#30
11-11-2005, 05:38 PM
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Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] My point is that you are mixing two concepts..... But justify playing the pot because it was +EV to begin with, not because of 5/10. [/ QUOTE ] OK, I'm understanding your point. My error was justifying the call according to 5/10. Instead of saying you have the 13th best hand possible, call and play some pokah. [/ QUOTE ] 22 is not the 13th best hand possible. My head hurts after reading that statement.
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