Reverse Implied Odds example

toby · #1 11-22-2005, 03:20 PM

CO is pretty fishy. MP2 hasn't done anything out of line; he's 23/0/1.33 after 60 hands. Flop aggression was pretty low.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, CO calls, Hero ...

I am ahead of only 4 aces, and have no club. What's your line?

sweetjazz · #2 11-22-2005, 03:25 PM

I think folding is best, because your likelihood of having the best hand at showdown is not enough to cover your effective odds in getting to showdown. Calling and reevaluating on the turn is tempting, but I don't think you'll have much of a better idea where you stand on the turn than you do now (other than seeing a club fall, in which case you can check/fold).

Raising would be really really really bad here.

#3 11-22-2005, 03:26 PM

I don't think this is reverse implied odds I think this is having a crappy hand that is probably behind and even if it is ahead will probably become behind soon.

Reverse implied odds (in my opinion) refers to a draw that when it hit's will still be behind. If you have 87s on a flop of 655 against 65 for example.

shant · #4 11-22-2005, 03:28 PM

I think betting the flop is best.

toby · #5 11-22-2005, 03:36 PM

Reverse implied odds: The ratio of money now in the pot to the amount of money you will have to call to continue from the present round to the end of the hand (from ssh)

Where I left off, there are only 3 BB's in the pot. My pair of aces might be good now, but if not my chance of improving is slim. If I am best now, by the river that chance is much lower. This is almost straight out of SSH, with a weak made hand but multiple opponenets in a small pot = fold.

I deliberated a bit then folded.

toby · #6 11-22-2005, 04:23 PM

Are you betting to protect your hand, or scare ppl off from a monotone board?

What do you do on the turn if a club hits with multiple oppenents left? Just one opponent?

AlexHoops · #7 11-22-2005, 04:26 PM

This is one area of my game that needs to improve a lot before I can move up to 10/20 and higher. I always make this CR, figuring that I will push out the draws of give them incorrect odds to call me. If they all do call me with the draw, 2 of their outs are already in the other players hands.

"Raising would be really really really bad here." I have no doubt that you are correct. Help me see it your way.

QTip · #8 11-22-2005, 04:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Reverse implied odds (in my opinion) refers to a draw that when it hit's will still be behind. If you have 87s on a flop of 655 against 65 for example.

[/ QUOTE ]

There has been plenty of confusion as to the definitions of reverse implied, effective odds and so forth.

Some want to make it so that reverse implied odds refer to when you hit a draw, that might not be good if you do. An example would be like a flush draw on a paired board with a lot of action. However, the 2+2 authors normally have examples of made hands, and in TOP, the definition includes a statement to the effect "a hand that you think may be best now", and it gives an example of like AA on a monotone 89T board. So...there's some overlay here, and a mix of definitions now. This always seems to cause problems, and I wish the community would post some set definitions to be used in the form to avoid confusion.

sweetjazz · #9 11-22-2005, 04:34 PM

The reason check raising is bad is because people call too much, so you won't fold out better aces or high clubs. Plus you still have the original bettor to contend who either has you badly beaten or has a strong draw. With his position he can either extract more bets from you with his strong hands when you play aggressively, or draw cheaply with a high club when you play passively (check the turn).

As I think about it, raising might be better than calling, or at least close to it. Still, folding is best because your odds of being good at the end of the hand are less than the effective odds you are being offered to see a showdown.

tpir90036 · #10 11-22-2005, 05:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this is reverse implied odds I think this is having a crappy hand that is probably behind and even if it is ahead will probably become behind soon.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hmmm. You say that you don't think it is reverse implied odds... and then you go on to give the exact definition of reverse implied odds!

Reverse implied odds are simply bets that we stand to lose on future streets.... we have a decent hand with little chance of improving and our opponent either has a great chance of improving or already has us smashed. So our odds to calldown are not as good as they look.

This does a good job of explaining it:
http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~jonathan/...pp/node22.html