Good Question For Catholics and Others

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In the absence of evidence that the pope had cheated by using scientific means, or that another person had even without the pope's knowledge, then yes I would tend to believe him.

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If the Pope told you that God told him to tell you to kill your family, would you believe him? (And would you do it?) Why or why not?

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This is obviously not what the OP's question is about, but rather about a miraculous event having already occurred. And I am not bound by injuctions, even from the pope, that are contrary to the moral law.

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So, you'd believe the Pope if he said he performed a miracle, but you'd not believe him when he told you that God told him to tell you to kill your family. Because, obviously, the Pope would be lying then, right? [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Oh, and if God says to kill your family, then the moral thing to do would be kill your family -- just ask NotReady.

[BluffTHIS!]

Trolling is its own reward isn't it?

[Lestat]

<font color="blue"> The analogy isn't quite right. It's more like giving a child a swiss army knife which they then use to kill people. </font>

I knew someone would bring this up. Still, if you give a kid who's too young a chemistry set. You shouldn't be surprised if someone gets hurt.

<font color="blue"> Plus, God didn't give us the gift of reason. Humans got reason by disobeying God and eating from the forbidden tree. </font>

Do you REALLY believe this? Then how did Eve <u>reason</u> with Adam and get him to eat from the forbidden tree?

[BluffTHIS!]

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<font color="blue"> Plus, God didn't give us the gift of reason. Humans got reason by disobeying God and eating from the forbidden tree. </font>

Do you REALLY believe this? Then how did Eve <u>reason</u> with Adam and get him to eat from the forbidden tree?

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Nice work. Plus he can't say Adam was just dazzled by her boobs cause he didn't know he was naked until he ate of the fruit.

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Trolling is its own reward isn't it?

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If you are saying that I'm "trolling", you are misinformed. I take it you don't have an answer to my question, so you tried hand waving. Nice try.

[Peter666]

Because every person in the world is capable of lying, there is no way to establish a miracle according to Hume's maxim, which is silly.

[Peter666]

This issue actually came up a couple years ago when they exhumed the body of Pope John XXIII. It had remained perfectly intact and people were making claims that the miracle of incorruptibility had taken place.

Now those who know about the current crisis in the Church know that it was John XXIII who initiated Vatican II and brought the problems to the forefront. He was a liberal prelate and not a saint.

When these "miraculous" reports surfaced, my first reaction was extreme skepticism bordering on outright disbelief. This is because the veracity of the Catholic religion is based on principles and Faith, not on miracles. If John XXIII truly was a saint, then it must be extremely easy to get into heaven.

Of course, a few weeks later we learned the truth. John XXIII had been embalmed and placed in an airtight and antibacterial coffin, consisting of three layers. Obviously this is was not a miracle, but made for a good test of principles.

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I knew someone would bring this up.

[/ QUOTE ] That generally happens when you give an incorrect analogy.

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Do you REALLY believe this? Then how did Eve <u>reason</u> with Adam and get him to eat from the forbidden tree?

[/ QUOTE ] I guess you don't work in sales. Reason has very little to do with persuasion. If you asked a 5 year old kid to please not do something, and they went ahead and did it behind your back, you'd still be mad or disappointed and you'd probably punish them, even though they can't reason very well.

BTW I'm an atheist. Just pointing out the obvious flaws in your commentary of the mainstream Christian account of human reason.

(For BluffThis - some Catholic cults have recently gone against 1700 years of history and changed their core beliefs for convenience ("um, oops, we got it wrong, Sorry to all the people we killed, maimed and oppressed. We got it right now though - trust us"). I don't see them as being 'mainstream' or even internally consistent. You need the apple to get to Jesus in any meaningful way. Dance baby, dance.)

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Because every person in the world is capable of lying, there is no way to establish a miracle according to Hume's maxim, which is silly.

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"Testimony" is not just verbal account -- it can also be evidence. And, I would take the verbal account of some people far more seriously: James Randi, Michael Shermer, Penn &amp; Teller (well, just Penn I guess), and others like them.

My mom used to say: "believe half of what you see, and none of what you hear" -- no wonder I'm a skeptic.

[imported_luckyme]

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Because every person in the world is capable of lying, there is no way to establish a miracle according to Hume's maxim, which is silly.

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"Should be" thinking alway intrigues me. Why should there be a way to establish a miracle? and do you have any methods in mind?

thanks, luckyme