JJ(or TT,99) fundamental question

[KHALI]

PLaying 1/2 and 2/4 and wondered how you guys approach these type hands with the following conditions.

Say you are in middle position with JJ and there are two limpers ahead of you, the blinds are also loose defenders and in general the table is loose passive with many calling stations. I know great table right!!

Is this an automatic raise for value? I know my hand is probably way ahead at this point to the typical limp garbage but is easily outdrawn and the raise will do little to limit the field. It may buy the button but even that isn't guaranteed and I will probably be in a pot three or four handed. Sklansky wrote in HEFAP about this when with hands like JJ when you want either few opponents to try to win unimproved or against many for set value. What guidelines do you follow?

What is your standard line for these situations knowing that if an overcard comes such as an A or K any opponent will call you down so you cannot bluff him off with continued aggression? Do you still value raise preflop here or do you play for set value?

I assume most of you guys will raise but is it a more +EV play to raise or limp along?

[meep_42]

I raise them pre-flop, every time. Well, I suppose I might not if I had a rock who only played AA/KK and never raised pre-flop already in the pot.

The flop really depends on the texture/drawyness of it and the action/players around you. It's hard to have a hard and fast rule for these situations.

-d

[Stellastarr]

I raise pretty much everytime.

[cold_cash]

You might not win the hand, but you will make money on all the bets that go in before the flop. Limping wins you less.

[Catt]

Not raising here is going to be a mistake in the vast majority (if not all) 1/2 or 2/4 games.

You probably didn't intend it, but I found this really funny:

[ QUOTE ]
I assume most of you guys will raise but is it a more +EV play to raise or limp along?

[/ QUOTE ]

So most of us will raise, but you're wondering whether we think it +EV to limp instead?

[OldYoda]

I think you have to raise this every time - long term it is the significantly stronger play.

[AustinDoug]

You have the 4th best possible starting hand. Why wouldn't you raise?

I raise this 100% of the time.

I will also usually re-raise with this.

[KHALI]

Here is the passage I was thinking about from HEPFAP pg 25.

"If no one has opened and you are in early position , it is usually best to raise with JJ in a tight game and to just call in a loose game. With two jacks you would prefer to either have no more than one or two opponents in the hope that your hand holds up without improvement, or to have as many opponents as possible when the majority of your profits come from flopping a set. The worst scenario is when exactly three or four opponents see the flop with you. This most likely would occur if you called in a tight game or raised in a loose game."

Any thoughts? In my scenario there would definitely be three and probably four opponents for a raise.

[callydrias]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is the passage I was thinking about from HEPFAP pg 25.

"If no one has opened and you are in early position..."

[/ QUOTE ]

In your example, the betting has already been opened and you are in middle position. With a raise in 1/2 or 2/4 you'll probably get a cold caller or two and if not, you'll have the button. In either case you'll gain an advantage by raising.

[SeaEagle]

[ QUOTE ]
"If no one has opened and you are in early position , it is usually best to raise with JJ in a tight game and to just call in a loose game. With two jacks you would prefer to either have no more than one or two opponents in the hope that your hand holds up without improvement, or to have as many opponents as possible when the majority of your profits come from flopping a set. The worst scenario is when exactly three or four opponents see the flop with you. This most likely would occur if you called in a tight game or raised in a loose game."


[/ QUOTE ]
HEFAP is not really aimed at 1/2 & 2/4 games on Party. In the situation you describe, with 99 and up you will win more than your share - and any time you will win more than your share you should be raising for value.

The beauty of SS (over the target audience for HEFAP) is that when you do flop a set or are winning with an overpair, people are going to give you more money than better players would.