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  #1  
Old 12-29-2005, 04:26 AM
SteveL91 SteveL91 is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 368
Default Turn Play...

First, let me say that I'm still new to PLO. I enjoy the game, and I'm getting better, but I recognize that I still have a long way to go.

Usually, I'll play the .25/.50 tables, but they were rather barren tonight, and the .50/1.00 tables looked good, so I decided to sit in a couple. I've played .50/1.00 before and I'm comfortable with the stakes, but I'm not quite ready to move up to the 1.00 tables full time just yet.

Anyway, I wasn't sure how to handle this hand on the turn.

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha High, $1.00 BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

SB ($100)
BB ($73.05)
UTG ($57.80)
UTG+1 ($85.10)
Hero ($137.90)
MP2 ($158.35)
MP3 ($68.15)
CO ($35.65)
Button ($220.20)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $3</font>, MP2 calls $3, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls $3, Button calls $3, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: ($13.50) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $3</font>, Hero calls $3, MP2 calls $3, CO calls $3.

Turn: ($25.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $24.3</font>, Hero folds, MP2 folds, CO folds.

Final Pot: $49.80

My raises had been getting a fair amount of respect, and these types of hands (3 connecting cards with a suited A) are among my favorite hands. Also, my background is limit hold 'em, so I tend to prefer a more aggressive game PF than perhaps I'm ready for in PLO.

I peeled the flop because I thought I'd get paid off nicely because of the rather concealed nature of my hand. But, once the turn hits and the button fires a pot-sized bet, I wasn't sure how to handle it. I didn't have much of a read on the button at the time, so I felt the turn fold was the more prudent play.

I apologize if this is incredibly standard, but something about this hand has been bugging me all night.

Thanks,
Steve
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  #2  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:41 AM
Spellmen Spellmen is offline
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 50
Default Re: Turn Play...

I would have folded the flop since there were two others behind you. You have only a pair with a gutshot and a backdoor flush draw, and it is very possible with a K on the board that someone was waiting to checkraise you. You prospects are crappy, and you are not likely to get paid off
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  #3  
Old 12-29-2005, 11:09 AM
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Default Re: Turn Play...

Preflop is fine.

Check/Fold the flop. You really only want to see a 6 on the turn and paying 1/4 to 1/5 to see one is certainly -EV. If you believe everyone is weak and will likely fold, you could go for a bluff check/raise and try to represent K-K-x-x. At least this way you stand a better chance of winning than simply calling OOP. If you meet any resistance though, you are likely go to have to give up on the turn.

As played, check/fold the turn. You have bottom two pair with a straight on the board facing a pot sized bet OOP and terrible redraw prospects. Fold, Fold, Fold.

The reason this hand should be bugging you is because you played it poorly after the flop. Learn and move on.

If you are going to take a card off, it is generally much better to do so in position than out of position. You could have fired the turn as a bluff that you had made the straight, but with 3 to act behind you, this is going to be extremely foolish most of the time.
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  #4  
Old 12-29-2005, 04:35 PM
SteveL91 SteveL91 is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 368
Default Re: Turn Play...

Thanks for the insight, guys. My thought process on the flop was that it was a fairly dry board: no flush draws, and just a couple of gutshots. I was first to act and checked, so I figured if anyone had a big hand they'd either bet it themselves, or look to wait until the turn. I would have folded to a 1/2-pot sized bet, but I felt the low possibility of a raise in conjunction with a decent draw that will get paid if I hit merited a flop peel.

Thanks again,
Steve
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  #5  
Old 12-29-2005, 05:00 PM
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Default Re: Turn Play...

[ QUOTE ]
but I felt the low possibility of a raise in conjunction with a decent draw that will get paid if I hit merited a flop peel.

[/ QUOTE ]

Drawing to longshots can be ok if the circumstances are right.

You either need to be priced in (which is unlikely to occur in a pot-limit format)

OR

You need to have the correct implied odds.

Where some people get hung up is with the whole idea of implied odds. If you are drawing to a long-shot, you don't want to be drawing to something like a simple gutshot straight draw. First of all, unless your opponents are morons, they will see the straight and may freeze up, limiting your potential profit and killing your implied odds. Secondly, your hand could be counterfieted on the river when the last card brings a better straight, flush, full house, etc. Remember, you want your opponent thinking that he has the best hand and go with you to showdown. I've seen many players hit their 3 out gutshots on the turn after calling down a pot-sized bet on the flop, only to start whining horribly when they lose to a 7 high flush on the river.

This is why, when you are looking for implied odds, drawing to straight flushes, overfulls or quads is better. When you hit such hands, you are likely to stack your opponent when they can't get rid of their Ace high flush, overfull or counterfieted underfull.

The only way that drawing to long-shots is not -EV long-term is to ensure that you have the appropriate implied odds every time. Thus, when you hit that 1/20 draw, you can make up for the 19 times that you missed.
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