QJo EMP in a Tightish Game

beset7 · #1 11-29-2005, 01:14 PM

AVG vpip at the table over 90 hands or so is about 20. SB is the only loose player. 40/10/3 type of dude. I started raising offsuit broadway from EMP after I saw it folded around a few times. Getting ready to switch tables when:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, 4 folds, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: (10.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

Spewage? Limp preflop even at tight tables? Fold to the turn 3-bet? Two overs and a gutshot makes the flop call ok if all my outs are clean. I can't give an exact range on what the SB 3-bets with out of the small blind but given I was playing aggressively it's probably something like TT+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,A9o+. Too wide? I think even against that range I'm toast.

tiltaholic · #2 11-29-2005, 01:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
AVG vpip at the table over 90 hands or so is about 20. SB is the only loose player. 40/10/3 type of dude. I started raising offsuit broadway from EMP after I saw it folded around a few times. Getting ready to switch tables when:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, 4 folds, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: (10.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

Spewage? Limp preflop even at tight tables? Fold to the turn 3-bet? Two overs and a gutshot makes the flop call ok if all my outs are clean. I can't give an exact range on what the SB 3-bets with out of the small blind but given I was playing aggressively it's probably something like TT+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,A9o+. Too wide? I think even against that range I'm toast.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think your range is way too wide - most players that are too loose and are generally bad don't pay attention to what you are doing. i'm pretty sure his 3-bet is not a reflection of your past aggressive play. i think you're looking at AJs+, AQo+, and 99+ many times here (from the sb).

i'd usually just call down from the turn on to see.

(i like the pf raise at the position and table you describe)

#3 11-29-2005, 01:22 PM

I raise the flop. You have position, a relatively strong hand, and you could use a cheap card on the turn. If three-bet on the flop I'd call and fold unimproved on the turn. Is raising this flop terrible?

As you played it, I think this isn't too bad. It sucks getting three-bet as it just screams overpair, but you still have to call with your gutshot plus trips/two pair draw. I also make the crying call on the river.

jaxUp · #4 11-29-2005, 01:23 PM

1. find a new table. Table selection will help improve your WR. Loose-ish tables at 2/4 shouldn't be hard to find.
2.It's not like you opened from CO on an obvious steal attempt. MP1 raise usually means business, so he's usually not 3-betting too light. You will usually see TT+, or AK/AQ, with pocket pairs being at least as likely as AK/AQ (probably moreso)
3.I like the turn raise if you can fold to a 3-bet. Getting him to fold AK is very nice for you here. However, with the gutshot + 2 pair/trips draw, you can't fold to the 3-bet because now you've bloated the pot. Call turn and call river.

This is a pretty good time to take a WA/WB line.

beset7 · #5 11-29-2005, 01:25 PM

Is raising and then folding to a 3-bet a big no-no preflop?

#6 11-29-2005, 01:25 PM

grunch

call preflop

as you played it call flop

just call turn and river

#7 11-29-2005, 01:26 PM

Preflop: It seems to me like this is a little bit too early to be open raising w/ this hand. I think it's OK to do at this table, but I'd probably want to be a seat or two closer to the button personally.

Flop: Agreed the odds merit a call

Turn: I think the turn raise is ok given this guy's AF. He could easily be coming after you w/ A8, A6, etc. He's raised 9 of the 90 hands you've seen him play, so my guess is that he's raising any Ace or King preflop. You could have him beat here, so I think a raise is ok.

River: I think a crying call is merited here w/ top pair heads up.

#8 11-29-2005, 01:28 PM

I would have to say it is. Even at low limits playing against people w/ far lower skill level than you, I think they are going to notice something as big as a raise/fold preflop. You'll be a target for the rest of the session.

bozlax · #9 11-29-2005, 01:29 PM

Preflop: I like the play at this table, as long as you don't feel like anybody's picking up on it (tables this tight at 2/4 usually make me think there's at least one or two good players seated).

Flop: two overcards, backdoor straight and flush draws, HU with Mr. Laggro, g00t peel.

Turn: ok, you've got top pair, now, but that card puts another flush draw on the board, and potentially completes a straight. Just call down, your FE is nonexistent, and being 3-bet by this player shouldn't be enough to let you fold.

River: you'll see AK/AT/etc here often enough to look him up.

tiltaholic · #10 11-29-2005, 01:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is raising and then folding to a 3-bet a big no-no preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes. preflop in limit holdem you shouldn't raise and fold for one more bet. folding for 2 more bets can be perfectly acceptable.