10-20 Stud8 Hand

[Andy B]

You can't jam with (76)66? You can't jam with (76)643 when you're looking at garbage boards?

It is easy to get sucked in with a hand like this. You have to know when to get away from it. I think Scags is a good enough player that he has a pretty good idea of when that is. This hand is a little tougher because Scags may well have the best hand, and he still has low and straight possibilities. It's very cheap, his call closes the action, and his hand has a lot of possibilities. I call on third all day long. Some might be better off folding, and you're not giving up a whole lot by doing so.

[mscags]

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I'd say you're right in theory. The problem is that you will get sucked in with a hand like this, never to bad to fold, never to good to jam. It's multiway now, but from 5th and forward it might be 3-way or just you and the guy with an ace. The real problem with those hands is that you can probably never start jammin. On 4th you want As 3s 4s 5d - start jammin. On 5th you want hands like As 6h 3h 4c 7d/ 8s 7d 5h 2c 6s - start jammin.

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I disagree that you must always wait for those super-strong hands to jam 4th and 5th. All you need to know is that you're probably way ahead of everyone else.

I also don't follow your logic. You seem to be implying that the hand is unprofitable because you need to have jamming hands to be profitable. In this case, all of the important villains picked up something good on 4th:

Seat 1: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <--- low
Seat 2: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <--- low
Seat 3: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <--- low
Seat 4: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <--- ???
Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <--- Hero
Seat 6: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <--- low

4th street could very well have come down totally different:

Seat 1: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <--- brick
Seat 2: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <--- low
Seat 3: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <--- brick
Seat 4: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <--- ???
Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <--- Hero
Seat 6: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <--- brick

All of a sudden, you're staring at mostly garbage boards and the one board that isn't garbage is drawing to an 8 low, which you might beat even if he already has 4 to a low. If the action were checked around to me, I'd bet. I don't have a hand where I would go for 3-4 bets, but it's still a profitable hand to play.

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I think this gets into those situations about representing your hands. A decent player who has any of those boards should fold on fourth unless they have a decent high draw as well. By my betting I am represnting four to a 6low. If you thought that your villian had this it would be correct to fold your 8-4draw or your 75 draw right? How else am I going to get them to fold by not betting this? Now I understand that if my opponents are terrible and wont fold anyway, than there isn't any point in doing this, but they all seemed competent and thought that there was a decent chance at narrowing the field with a bet. If I only bet with super strong hands outward and inward than good opponents will be able to read me like a book.

[lane mcbride]

with no read and a small pot I think it's a fold...

however, if you can rule out him having two pair it is a definite raise because you're about even money with him if he has a hand like a238a. However, two pair puts you in pretty bad shape.


Suppose we did raise: you're probably only actually going to have to put in 3 bets total 2 on fifth, 1 on sixth, and a free check on seventh if you don't improve. and if you do improve, you'll gain a bet or so most likely on the river. Also, there is a slight chance he'll fold to the raise on 5th or the bet on 6th (especially if you catch good and he catches bad (thinking you have straight or are freerolling for high on him). I don't think that is enough to justify it. so, with no read, and a tiny pot, I fold

-Lane

[benwood]

3rd:Nothing wrong with making this small investment in last position,imo.Good implied odds.You play better than them,right?You don't want to look like a rock & then get no action when you have a real hand.(Metagame).
4th:Good bet.
5th:You're done.Well played.Next hand.

[grb137]

3rd is not debatable at all - you are a dog in both directions...easy fold.

5th is a no brainer - you are a huge dog in both directions. Chances are high that you opponents have got 7s and 6s somewhere within their hole cards...so your chances of filling to take *half* the pot are slim. Your chances of take low are even worse. You've wasted enough on this hand.

Zee has a nice list of playable 3rd street hands in his pamphlet. I'm pretty sure a pair of 6s aint on the list.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

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3rd is not debatable at all - you are a dog in both directions...easy fold.

Zee has a nice list of playable 3rd street hands in his pamphlet. I'm pretty sure a pair of 6s aint on the list.

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being a dog in both directions doesn't necessarily make it a fold. closing the action here i think this is actually a pretty easy call.

i am pretty sure a hand like a baby pair with another baby is a playable hand here.

[Andy B]

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Zee has a nice list of playable 3rd street hands in his pamphlet. I'm pretty sure a pair of 6s aint on the list.


[/ QUOTE ] Number 9

[mscags]

I think the fact that I close the action and that the pot is multiway and all of my sixes are live makes this an ok call.

[grb137]

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Zee has a nice list of playable 3rd street hands in his pamphlet. I'm pretty sure a pair of 6s aint on the list.


[/ QUOTE ] Number 9

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well, you made me go and pull-down the book from the shelf. I'll admit baby pair with baby kicker is on the list, I forgot that this list isn't one of playable hands, but one of "starting hands" - where he gives his opinions of various starting hands that people play.

What I seem to read on pages 18-19 regarding this hand is that
1) its "dangerous" and "very marginal"
-- I happen to agree

2) its "worth playing only when it appears that no one has a strong hand"
-- in this case, you've got FIVE other players - surely at least one person has a strong hand

3) "you shouldnt play these hands unless the situation appears advantageous"
--- I think 5 others players makes it very DISadvantageous.

4) "you prefer to play this hand heads up with a player whose upcard is lower..."
-- we're talking about FIVE other players, not heads up


However, I'll concede that Zee makes rooms room for certain situations where this hand is playable:
- if your kicker is a SF card
- if you can limp
- if you are heads up against door lower than your pair
- if your opponents are not completely live and your cards are very live

Seems like most on here find the fact that you're on the end as reason enough to peel one off. I think the more weighty factors make this and easy fold:
1) with your call, you're looking at a 6-way hand. This means that you are against other low hands (thus making other babies much more dead than the exposed cards would dictate). It makes the possibility that your 6s are completely dead VERY high. It also makes the possibility that someone is limping with a higher pair (e.g. the guy with the 10 on your right) much more likely.
2) In general, I believe that the tighter the structure, the tighter you need to play. With this structure, I think your best bet is to fold cheaply on hands like these that are "very marginal."

Anyway, based on our informal poll here, Zee was right: "Most players will play small-pair, small-kicker starting hands. They are hard to throw away because they look so good."

[grb137]

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I think the fact that I close the action and that the pot is multiway and all of my sixes are live makes this an ok call.

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I would be willing to bet that at least one, if not both of your other 6s are dead in other people's hole cards by virtue of how many caller limped on 3rd. IF you catch a 6 on 4th, you likely lose the 10 on your right and any busted low draws. The implied odds just arent very good I think.