Official Predestination and Calvinism Post

[BluffTHIS!]

1) Since protestantism presupposes that the Catholic Church veared from the "early Christian church" around 350 A.D. or so, can you show that the early christians prior to that approximate date believed in calvinist interpretations of scripture?

2) What was Calvin's authority for his biblical interpretations?

3) Is every individual passage of the bible literally true?

4) Were certain individuals predestined to perdition? That is, did they never truly have the free will to repsond to God's grace and be saved by virtue of Christ's redemption?

[udontknowmickey]

none whatsoever other than both holding a high view of predestination

[udontknowmickey]

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1) Since protestantism presupposes that the Catholic Church veared from the "early Christian church" around 350 A.D. or so, can you show that the early christians prior to that approximate date believed in calvinist interpretations of scripture?


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Well, setting aside what protestants presupposed (I'm not sure that figure is accurate), the reformers believed that predestination was taught by Christ and the Apostles (as well as the prophets for that matter), so the question of if we can find an early church figure who believed in it is irrelevant if it is actually taught in Scripture.

That being said, Calvin pointed to Augustine a great deal in his support for predestination. Here is probably the clearest example: Augustine. Note this isn't within your specified range, but it's the one i can remember off the top of my head.

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2) What was Calvin's authority for his biblical interpretations?


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The same authority that Martin Luther claimed, and the same authority that protestans of the church today (try to) claim: Scripture is our only infallible rule. To put it concisely, Scripture interprets Scripture.

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3) Is every individual passage of the bible literally true?


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It depends on what you mean by "literal." If you mean that every verse means exactly what the words specifically mean, then no. Jesus saying "I am the vine" does not literally mean he has leaves and the like. If you mean each verse is interpreted in accordance to it's genre and surrounding text (as well as with the Bible as a whole) then yes. Notready had a good post on this earlier. I don't know how to find it though.

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4) Were certain individuals predestined to perdition? That is, did they never truly have the free will to repsond to God's grace and be saved by virtue of Christ's redemption?


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Since I deny free will completely, my answer may be different from spam's, but I believe predestination to perdition is painfully obvious from a simple reading of Romans 9

[BluffTHIS!]

Well if scripture alone (sola scriptura) is the only standard, then whose interpretation should be followed? The great number of protestant denominations would seem to indicate that lacking an authoritative interpreter, that even more doctrinal disagreements leading to further splits are inevitable. And if the 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation of disciples of Christ and the apostles can't be counted upon to have the majority correct view, then how can Calvin or Luther? And regarding the passage in Romans, there is more than one interpretation. Predestination doesn't have to mean that certain individuals were predestined to perdition via having no real minimal opportunity to respond to God's grace (although others might be given greater and more opportunities), but only that by virtue of God's foreknowledge of their free negative reponse, that they were predestined to eternal punishment as a consequence.

[udontknowmickey]

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Well if scripture alone (sola scriptura) is the only standard, then whose interpretation should be followed?
The great number of protestant denominations would seem to indicate that lacking an authoritative interpreter, that even more doctrinal disagreements leading to further splits are inevitable. And if the 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation of disciples of Christ and the apostles can't be counted upon to have the majority correct view, then how can Calvin or Luther? And regarding the passage in Romans, there is more than one interpretation. Predestination doesn't have to mean that certain individuals were predestined to perdition via having no real minimal opportunity to respond to God's grace (although others might be given greater and more opportunities), but only that by virtue of God's foreknowledge of their free negative reponse, that they were predestined to eternal punishment as a consequence.


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My roommate was Catholic last year, so we had many a late night debating. If you would like to walk down this path I can do so through email, or in another thread, but this one is about predestination (and I actually told spam I wouldn't really post much on it too, so now I feel kinda bad). Start up another thread, number your points and I'll address them one by one. Or you can email me mcsheu@gmail.NOSPAMcom with them. I'd love to address them.

[BluffTHIS!]

The points I made in my previous post are interrelated. You can't discuss a doctrine without also discussing how passages of scripture supposedly supporting that doctrine are authoritatively interpreted.

[spaminator101]

I don't really mind you doing that as I don't stay up very late, so I don't get to respond until Morning when I am often over whelmed with other things.

As you know the only point i disagreed with was with # because i beleive that we have some free will, as i mentioned earlier with sex,drugs,money.

[spaminator101]

Hey, on a side note sexdrugsmoney. Are you a christian. Some times it seems like you are and then sometimes it doesn't.

[sexdrugsmoney]

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Hey, on a side note sexdrugsmoney. Are you a christian. Some times it seems like you are and then sometimes it doesn't.

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I want to see myself through your eyes.

Can you please give me examples of the 'sometimes it doesn't seem like I'ma Christian?'

Cheers,
SDM

PS - I'm planning on further discussion with you regarding the Nephilim at a later date but work has swamped me at the moment. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[spaminator101]

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Can you please give me examples of the 'sometimes it doesn't seem like I'ma Christian?'

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Ok lets just say that there aren't many of them. But however heres one.

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Aspiring grinder

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from your profile this just rings an evil bell in my brain.