Wow. Just . . . WOW. (Sorry, LC)

[Michael Emery]

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Quote:
....you can call yourself a stud expert if you can average 1BB/hr in 10-20 or 20-40 over time.




That gives me something to shoot for. Thanks Mike.

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Somehow I think you might already be capable of this, Andy. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]


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but I can't believe that the 5/10 isn't beatable for at least 3-4BB/100, if not more.

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My guess is you just hit a rush and there were a lot of bad players making bad plays at the current time you were on. I can assure you that no player on party currently averages 3-4 BB's/100, or more, in the 5-10 over a reasonable amount of hands. I have played tens of thousands of hands there along with several other posters here. I kept good records and only averaged around 2.3BB/100. If I recall correctly, Vintage Sara also posted similar stats (slightly over 2BB/100) once when discussing her winrate in this game. Since the consensus is that shes one of the best players on party ( she is ) it should show you that 3-4 or more per 100 cant be done over time. More regulars from this game like Roland, Beer, Frappe, Stream, Beta, etc., can chime in here.

Mike Emery

[Grisgra]

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Maybe you were cracking some big hands that you didn't have any business playing against.. e.g., someone has aces and you pair your doorcard with deuces. I'll assume you're smart enough to realize that short run swings like this usually mean a player is playing too loose.

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p. 68 of 7CSFAP:

"As already mentioned, you must take into account whether your hand has the potential to improve enough that it would be a mistake for your opponent to pay off all the way. Here's an example. Suppose you start with:

5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

If you catch a nine, your opponent probably is correct to call all thw way with just one pair because you are holding a hand that can easily be beaten. Thus, this hand is barely worth a call, even for a bring-in against typical opposition. However, against players who will pay you off all the way if you make open fives, then it becomes worthwhile to call."

That said, I didn't even play anything as weak as 595r. I did, coincidentally, win when I got trip deuces on 4th street, but as I was the bring-in I can't exactly be blamed for seeing 4th. (I don't even think I had to call a complete bet on 3rd.) And obviously, there they have much less reason to suspect I have anything . . . but there were at least two or three other cases where I should have been in the hand -- raised or reraised them on 3rd, in fact, before I foolishly realized that it's impossible to get people headsup on 3rd -- and then paired my doorcard and had them call me down all the way. They didn't even have two pair.

[Grisgra]

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My guess is you just hit a rush and there were a lot of bad players making bad plays at the current time you were on.

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I'm sure that both of these are the case.

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I can assure you that no player on party currently averages 3-4 BB's/100, or more, in the 5-10 over a reasonable amount of hands.

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That actually surprises me quite a bit, but you guys are the ones who have put the hands in, not me. With play as bad as I saw, I have a tough time imagining that one couldn't win 3-4BB/100, but from what you say it's probably just that these were the fishiest of the fishiest and I was simply in the right place at the right time.

Just seems to me that 3rd street hand selection in Stud is more important than preflop hand selection in Hold 'em, and that the players in Stud (that I saw) were often even worse than the Hold 'em fish. That, combined with the calldowns . . . wowie.

Well, here's to hoping the rush continues [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[grb137]

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Congratulations. You won a lot in one night. Quit your day job and become a poker pro.

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This is an uncharacteristic tone from you -- having a bad night at the tables?

[grb137]

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I'll assume you're smart enough to realize that short run swings like this usually mean a player is playing too loose.

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I disagree. Its very possible for a person playing "textbook"/ABC/correct poker to go on a nice run where he's hitting/filling everything. It doesn't necessarily mean he's playing too loose, it just means you're hitting your cards, thats all.

[grb137]

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That actually surprises me quite a bit, but you guys are the ones who have put the hands in, not me. With play as bad as I saw, I have a tough time imagining that one couldn't win 3-4BB/100, but from what you say it's probably just that these were the fishiest of the fishiest and I was simply in the right place at the right time.


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I have been skeptical of these claims as well - while I don't purport to be an expert, I do see certain regulars on party that are almost always winning players. Maybe 1 day I'll care enough to keep track of my winrate. I feel the same as you do Grisgra: I don't see why a solid player multi-tabling 5-10 couldn't make a decent 4-5BB/hr.

[grb137]

Case in point: Opponent had just lost a big pot holding a flush, losing to a boat, 2 hands ago. I strongly suspected the guy was on tilt, and look what he did for me:

7 Card Stud High ($20/$40), Ante $2, Bring-In $5 (hand converter)

Hero: $1,566
Seat 5: $239
Seat 7: $1,259

3rd Street - (0.30 SB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___completes___raises
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds

4th Street - (6.55 SB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (4.28 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___raises

6th Street - (8.28 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls

River - (10.28 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___bets (all-in)

Total pot: 12.13 BB

Results:
Main Pot: $484 | | Rake: $1

Hero: [ 3d Qh Qc 3h 8h Ts 7h ] [ two pairs, queens and threes -- Qh,Qc,Ts,3d,3h ]

Seat 5: [ Qd 5c 5h 4c Ac Js Ks ] [ a pair of fives -- Ac,Ks,Qd,5c,5h ]

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At 20/40! I see this happen often! Surely 4-5/bb is possible with this king of stuff happening.

[Michael Emery]

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Quote:

That actually surprises me quite a bit, but you guys are the ones who have put the hands in, not me. With play as bad as I saw, I have a tough time imagining that one couldn't win 3-4BB/100, but from what you say it's probably just that these were the fishiest of the fishiest and I was simply in the right place at the right time.




I have been skeptical of these claims as well - while I don't purport to be an expert, I do see certain regulars on party that are almost always winning players. Maybe 1 day I'll care enough to keep track of my winrate. I feel the same as you do Grisgra: I don't see why a solid player multi-tabling 5-10 couldn't make a decent 4-5BB/hr.

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But who makes this 4-5BB/hr out of these "certain regulars", grb? I know you've played a lot of 5-10 through 20-40 stud on party with me before, you know all the regulars just like many of us, the big winners, the big losers. On the stud forum we now have some of the best players on party. Of the ones who have tracked extended results it just dosent seem likely anyone is doing it. I know you're a damn fine stud player but 4-5 BB/100 is out of reach over time.

*NOTE: While I say 4-5 isnt possible over time, I'm assuming you are playing in some average games as well as the spectacular ones when several fish are in them. I agree 4-5 BB is possible if you were only to play against the most advantageous lineups. The thing is that these lineups might only occur 15 hrs or so per week. During these times I fully agree 4-5BB/100 or more is possible. But a lot of these "regular winners" are pros and obviouslly have to play much more than 15 hrs per week to make ends meat.

Mike Emery

[SA125]

11:35 Sun night there's 6 $5-10 games going. 3 avg 6-7 BB's a pot and 3 less than 5. There's never as many good games going compared to full HE tables at $5-10, and it gets twice as tight above that. Which is why banking the nice score that you did isn't realistic on a long term consistent basis. There are no where near the newbies flocking to stud like they are in HE.

I saw a young woman drop $5K of her boyfriends roll playing live $20-40 HE. She has the skill level of a .50-$1 player. You aint getting that in stud.

[grb137]

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But who makes this 4-5BB/hr out of these "certain regulars", grb? I know you've played a lot of 5-10 through 20-40 stud on party with me before, you know all the regulars just like many of us, the big winners, the big losers. On the stud forum we now have some of the best players on party. Of the ones who have tracked extended results it just dosent seem likely anyone is doing it.

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Well, off the top of my head, I suspect percy6 is easily clearing 4-5BB/hr - the guy 4 tables, and plays rock solid poker. Whenever I sit down, and he's playing, he almost always has more than the standard buy-in, and he almost always increases his stack while I'm playing.

Another guy off the top of my head - Fobol on the 10/20 Stud/8 tables - I've played a ton with him, and like percy, he plays it rock solid and is always winning.

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I know you're a damn fine stud player but 4-5 BB/100 is out of reach over time.

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Well thank you for the complement, and I hope that I haven't seemed to come across like I think I'm capable of some super poker feat that others aren't. I just don't think 4-5 is that far outta range based on my part-time, place once and a while, experiences, such as the one I posted earlier in this thread.

And having played with you often, I believe that if you weren't so busy kicking everyone's a$$ in HE, you could be making 4-5BB/hr multitabling stud. Have *you* tracked your winrate in stud over an extended period?