Button Bongo Bonanza at the Bike

[Sparks]

I was at the Bicycle Casino the other night and I think I got the short end of the stick on a decision by the floorman.

I was in the 8 seat, and although I like the ends, this particular table had a raised floor receptacle (for the shuffle machine) right at my feet, and it was bothering me. I planned to move to any other other end seat, the 2, 3 or 7, as soon as it became available. It’s a seniority process on seat changes at the Bike, so who ever has been at the table longer can request an available seat if more than one person wants to move. In practice, it’s often just the first person to make the request takes the seat – which I intended to do the moment an end seat became available. Then one did, the 7 seat, to my immediate right.

Here’s what happened: Full nine-handed game with the button at the 4 seat. We finish the hand, and the button slides over to the 5 seat. The 7 seat gets up and leaves after playing UTG and I say I’ll take his seat and the big blind, and I move. Then the 6 seat, who just took his big blind, says he wants my 8 seat, and takes it. The 5 seat’s phone rings, so he leaves his button to talk on the phone and is out for the hand.

Half the table is talking at the same time, including myself, as if we’re experts, telling the dealer what to do, where to put the button, etc. Over comes the floorman and makes his determination on what needs to happen (I'll leave his name out, because I think he blew it).

What do you think? Where does the button go? Who’s in, who’s out, who’s posting, who’s waiting?

I think I got a bad decision, but I’ll let the wisdom of the board figure it out. Results to follow, including how I got revenge on the next hand. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Sparks

[Randy_Refeld]

If I am reading all of this correctly the new 8 seat gets the button and owes a small blind on the button. The 9 and 1 seats both owe big blinds. You may post both blinds with the small being dead in the center or you may wait for the big blind. You were probably thinking you should get the button with the 8 seat being the small blind, but you have not taken a blind yet so you cannot receive the button. It has been a few years since I worked at the Bike, so perhaps Rick can clarify and quote exact rules.

Randy Refeld

[Rick Nebiolo]

There are two sets of rules at the Bike regarding button placement and posting of blinds. Top section (including NL) uses the standard rule where you are responsible for posting all blinds every round and offers advanced options such as "buy the button" and posting a single blind as a new player between the small blind and button. Note that the I personally campaigned for the advanced options along with a reduction of the penalty for moving away from the blind.

Bottom section (8/16 and below) carries over a policy that was used when there was only one blind (which was a policy I successfully lobbied to change as "one blind" is the type of action killing blind structure favored by nits). When the Bike had one blind and the player on the button got up the button slid forward and the player that was supposed to take the single blind now gets the button and "fades" the blind that round. This was deemed "player friendly" (not by me - I maintain it is a violation of proper poker procedure). That said, the fact was with one blind few noticed or complained since there was always a single blind in front of the button and the person that escaped the blind probably thought he was benefiting from some sort of mistake.

When I convinced management to go back to two blinds in bottom section it was mandated that the policy of allowing a player to "fade a blind" continue. In other words, if the player on the button or small blind gets up, the blinds or button move forward and now two players get to fade either the big blind or small blind. Are you following? Naturally I campaigned against this, albeit unsuccessfully.

As an aside, the worst problem with this "blind fading" policy was that when someone had an "out" button and was about to post the big blind and re-enter, if the small blind or button got up the big blind would slide past him and he would either have to wait another round or post the big blind and dead small blind two hands later. Still following?

When buy the button and the other posting options were implemented in top section, I decided to wait and make sure the bugs were worked out before campaigning for their introduction into bottom section. Several months passed, BTB and the other posting options were well-received and the bugs were worked out (the one minor exception/problem is beyond the scope of this post). I then campaigned to have one set of rules apply to both top and bottom section, including BTB and the improved posting options. Unfortunately, I was unsuccessful.

So I guess my question is "What limit were you playing?"

Regards,

Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
If I am reading all of this correctly the new 8 seat gets the button and owes a small blind on the button. The 9 and 1 seats both owe big blinds. You may post both blinds with the small being dead in the center or you may wait for the big blind. You were probably thinking you should get the button with the 8 seat being the small blind, but you have not taken a blind yet so you cannot receive the button. It has been a few years since I worked at the Bike, so perhaps Rick can clarify and quote exact rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

Randy,

You might enjoy my other post, and yes, I was venting a bit (in my defense I was dealing with a rain leak into the wall behind a giant bookcase [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]).

Assuming this is top section, why can't Sparks in seat seven get the button and post a big blind on the button (note that next hand he posts a small blind with the button to his left). The player who is now in seat eight moved at an inopportune time, yet by doing so he missed a blind and would now post another big blind in seat eight. Seat nine also should post a big blind since there are always at least two blinds posted in front of the button (except when buying the button - the dead BTB blind serves as one of the blinds).

Next hand seat one posts the big blind (there is no seat ten in LA), seat nine posts a small blind, seat eight posts a small blind on the button, and seat seven (Sparks) posts a small blind behind the button.

The following hand (i.e, third hand in the sequence) everything returns to normal (small and big posted in front of the button with the button in seat nine) as all players have met their blind obligations. The fact that seat eight (who moved at the wrong time from seat six) seems to post an extra blind often occurs when a player moves while he is in the middle of the blinds (instead of dealing off).

Regards,

Rick

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming this is top section, why can't Sparks in seat seven get the button and post a big blind on the button (note that next hand he posts a small blind with the button to his left). The player who is now in seat eight moved at an inopportune time, yet by doing so he missed a blind and would now post another big blind in seat eight

[/ QUOTE ]

Rick,
You are right. I have less experience with the forward moving button. Yes, I did enjoy your post about fading blinds, I had forgotten about the single blind games (those were being played for a couple of months before I left). If seat 7 is given the big blind onthe button the next hand he can take the small blind as a trailing blind. On this first hand is there a real reason seat 8 cannot take the small blind having just paid the big blind and receive the button the next hand having paid both blinds. I am in the moniroty view, but I am not a an of the forward moving button not only becasue of situations like this but becasue I think allowing someone to pay a blind in the best position is a lto more of an injustice than allowing someone the button twice in a row when the second time they woudl have been in the cutoff seat which is a good position to be in anyway. In NL an PL games I am in favor of moving the button to the next active player and having the 2 players after the button post blinds and not worry about missed blinds etc.

Randy Refeld

[Sparks]

[ QUOTE ]
So I guess my question is "What limit were you playing?"

[/ QUOTE ]

20-40 HE. I'm confused by the responses thus far, though. How is the button getting past the 6 seat? It is the 5 seat who's on the phone -- the 6 seat is still in the game when I move to the 7 seat.

Sparks

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
On this first hand is there a real reason seat 8 cannot take the small blind having just paid the big blind and receive the button the next hand having paid both blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe that is what I wrote (I'm now late and in a rush so don't have time to comb through my earlier post). Seat eight moved at a bad time (from seat six) so he incurs extra blind obligations (unless he wants to wait a round). He posts the big blind directly in front of the button (that's the hand with three big blinds) and next hand he posts the small blind on the button. He doesn't fade any blinds, in fact he pays three blinds three successive hands.

[ QUOTE ]
I am in the minority view, but I am not a an of the forward moving button not only because of situations like this but because I think allowing someone to pay a blind in the best position is a lto more of an injustice than allowing someone the button twice in a row when the second time they woudl have been in the cutoff seat which is a good position to be in anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point but this is very rare. BTW, about ten years ago a part time writer for Card Player named Steve Fox (if memory serves) wrote an exhaustive analysis of the advantages/disadvantages of the forward moving button (commonly used in LA ring games) versus the dead button (used in tournaments and Las Vegas).

[ QUOTE ]
In NL an PL games I am in favor of moving the button to the next active player and having the 2 players after the button post blinds and not worry about missed blinds etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your point here has merit, as PL/NL is more about position as opposed to blinds.

Regards,

Rick

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
the 6 seat is still in the game when I move to the 7 seat.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 6 seat moved to your vacted 8 seat (right?). With the forward moving button the button must be given to an active player. After thinking about this a bit instead of going off the top of my head I woudl say this. You receive the button and owe a big blind this hand and will owe a small blind next hand. The player that moved from the 6 seat to the 8 seat has moved out of the small blind. He can either post another big blind or allow the the button to pass and post his dead small blind behind the button. There will be two big blinds in front of the button either by 8 and 9 or 9 and 1 depending on what seat 8 wants to do. Seat 8 also has the right to play off his button in seat 6 and THEN move in which 7 and 9 both owe big blinds. I am sorry I wasn't concise earlier; I get distracted by playing multi table poker. I hope this responce was clearer.

Randy Refeld

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't believe that is what I wrote (I'm now late and in a rush so don't have time to comb through my earlier post)

[/ QUOTE ]

That isn't what you wrote; I was thikning about it to myself. I was gogin to go back in note in my previous responce that I was mistaken but the time to edit had elapsed so it will have to be there for all to see.

Randy Refeld

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So I guess my question is "What limit were you playing?"

[/ QUOTE ]

20-40 HE. I'm confused by the responses thus far, though. How is the button getting past the 6 seat? It is the 5 seat who's on the phone -- the 6 seat is still in the game when I move to the 7 seat.

Sparks

[/ QUOTE ]

I read your post to mean that the six seat actually moved leaving the six seat empty. Now I realize that the six seat merely locked up the eight seat, which is empty for the hand in question. Heck, I'm late anyway but this is Bike business so let me try again [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

You haven't taken any blinds and slide to the empty seven seat. Seat five, who should have had the button leaves the table and doesn't say "deal me in" so he can't be dealt in. Seat six, who had the big blind last hand and has seat eight locked for a future move, posts the small blind on the button (which must slide forward to an occupied seat). You must post a big blind in seat seven if you want to play. Seat nine also posts a big blind (seat eight being empty) since there must be two blinds forward of the button unless someone is buying the button or posting inside.

Next hand you post a small blind on the button in seat seven. Presumably seat eight now gets up and deals off (a good time to move his chips to his new seat). Seat nine posts a small blind in front of the button and seat one posts the big blind. Next hand all returns to normal as seat nine gets the button and seat eight can be dealt in for free since he dealt off.

I need to see the landlord about my window leak and will check back in ten to fifteen minutes. Otherwise, any responses will have to wait until tonight [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Regards,

Rick

PS I don't like those receptacles either. This must have been table number seven.