Why am i such a limit donk?

redrooski24 · #1 10-09-2005, 06:46 PM

I'm trying to figure out how to play limit and if I can be a winning player at it since I see it being more profitable(if I can figure out wtf I'm doing) than the sngs I usually play. I think a type of hand that gets me in trouble is the one below, I just really felt I was beat on the turn but just couldn't lay it down. Comments and advice is greatly appreciated since I can't seem to figure out what the hell I'm doing in this game(I've only got about 5k hands in PT right now and I'm already down 100bb)

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero raises, MP calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP raises, BB folds, Hero 3-bets, MP calls.

Turn: (6.16 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP raises, Hero calls.

River: (10.16 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.16 BB

Maulik · #2 10-09-2005, 06:57 PM

Small Stakes by Ed Miller.

Harv72b · #3 10-09-2005, 07:40 PM

Step 1: Stop trying to learn limit on 6max tables. This is roughly comparable to trying to learn how to relate to animals by locking yourself up in a small cage with several rabid wolverines. Stick to full tables until you get the hang of the game, or at least drop down to 1/2 6max if you insist on sticking it out shorthanded.

Step 2: SSH, as above. Theory of Poker. Hold'em For Advanced Players. In that order.

Step 3: Keep posting hands.

FWIW, I'd have played the hand you posted the same way you did, absent a read on MP. A case could be made for check/folding the river if MP is not an idiot.

redrooski24 · #4 10-09-2005, 09:09 PM

I've read all those books except SSHE and am a winning player at every game I've played now except for LHE. For some reason, I think it's some little detail in limit that I'm missing that I can't seem to get my mind around. Guess I'll try full ring out.

Alex/Mugaaz · #5 10-09-2005, 09:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Step 1: Stop trying to learn limit on 6max tables. This is roughly comparable to trying to learn how to relate to animals by locking yourself up in a small cage with several rabid wolverines. Stick to full tables until you get the hang of the game, or at least drop down to 1/2 6max if you insist on sticking it out shorthanded.

Step 2: SSH, as above. Theory of Poker. Hold'em For Advanced Players. In that order.

Step 3: Keep posting hands.

FWIW, I'd have played the hand you posted the same way you did, absent a read on MP. A case could be made for check/folding the river if MP is not an idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've found HPFAP to be virtually useless in all games 5/10 or below.

Borodog · #6 10-09-2005, 09:58 PM

"Virtually useless?" Come on now. It's not written for the modern LLHE game, but it is still chock full of brilliant **** that makes me money every time I play.

Anyway, back to the OP.

1) Play full ring games, not shorthanded. Cage-match-wolverine-taming as cited above is an excellent analogy for trying to learn to play shorthanded. You will get eaten alive.

1a) Read Small Stakes Hold'em.

2) Use Poker Tracker if you aren't already.

2a) Reread Small Stakes Hold'em.

3) Start out playing very tight. Get very comfortable playing the big hands that have the highest EV. As you get comfortable, then you can begin to add more marginal holdings. Playing a lot of small EV junk can distract you from serious problems that happen frequently (e.g. playing AK on a whiffed flop).

3a) Rereread Small Stakes Hold'em.

4) Practice excellent table and seat selection. Choose tables where most players are loose and passive if possible. Make sure the loosy-goosies are to your right, and try to get a couple of rocks to your left (so you can steal their blinds). Money gravitates to position. Have loose, fishy money to your right. Avoid tables with very large pots. The problem with these games is that while they are probably loose, they are also probably aggressive. Those giant pots are built by aggressive betting and raising. You want loose and passive, not loose and aggressive. If you sit down and determine that the table is not good, or even if the table is great, but you just are in the wrong seat, get up and keep looking. Even if you get stuck. It's not worth it (I learned this the hard way; you do NOT want to try to get even in a rock garden).

4a) Rerereread SSH.

5) Think about the game away from the tables, including posting hands here. Study important hands from your sessions. I recently saw a post by someone who said they sort their session afterward by $ won and examine what they did right and wrong in their biggest wins and losses (although there are a ton of small but frequent win and loss plays that matter tremendously). I think that's a great idea, and I'm about to start it myself.

5a) SSH.

Harv72b · #7 10-09-2005, 10:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I've found HPFAP to be virtually useless in all games 5/10 or below.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's extremely useful for 6max play. And there are a lot of concepts in there that will help anyone's game, at any level.

McHonts · #8 10-09-2005, 11:06 PM

If you were playing .5/1 I would say that mp might turn anything over. I would suggest dropping down to .25/.50 full tilt or .5/1 party to get used to the differences more cheaply. 3/6 6max is lots tougher than the lower limits. small stakes is excellent and I am on my 6th read or so. I get more out of it each time. I would have played the hand the same way you did - unless I had a read on the player.
oh and poker tracker is a requirement. open a number of tables and let it gather stats on the people you are going to be playing against. the external table window is great to get better feel for the table.

Alex/Mugaaz · #9 10-09-2005, 11:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've found HPFAP to be virtually useless in all games 5/10 or below.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's extremely useful for 6max play. And there are a lot of concepts in there that will help anyone's game, at any level.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are also a ton more that will instantly turn a marginal winner into a marginal loser in the average 5/10 and below game due to the marginal players inability to see why your line should change because of factors they aren't experienced and/or qualified to judge. If you don't play high or shorthanded I would advise not reading it at all, it takes a long time to understand, and once you do understand it you should realize that virtually all games 5/10 and below don't fit into the examples. Regardless of the groupthink support for it.

TOP should carry people from 3/6 5/10 to the middle limit games where they can start understanding AND applying HPAFAP.

private joker · #10 10-10-2005, 03:59 AM

You played the AQ hand fine until the river, which you should fold. If it weren't for the gutshot, you should fold the turn. But you have the odds to catch a T or a discounted A/Q (which I think are highly discounted, since this guy has a set a lot of the time).