10/20 QQ

jason_t · #1 12-12-2005, 05:52 AM

SB is 27.9/14.31/2.52 over 6436 and is the same villain from the KK hand. UTG+1 is 16.8/6.56/1.49 over 457 and this was his first orbit at the table.

Is it best to wait for the turn here? What effect does having the Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] have on this decision?

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: I am UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
I raise, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, I bet, UTG+1 raises, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, SB 3-bets, BB folds

lil feller · #2 12-12-2005, 06:15 AM

I cap and see what happens on the turn. With that board and so many cold callers preflop, a set is certainly a possibility for either player, and getting 3bet on the turn would suck. There are also alot of turn cards that will discourage you from wanting to raise the turn, like any A, K, heart, 6, 3, or 5. I'd rather get the pissing match over on the small bet street here, you're hand does'nt look all that great.

Maybe i'm seeing monsters under the bed though...

lf

PokerBob · #3 12-12-2005, 06:18 AM

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SB is 27.9/14.31/2.52 over 6436 and is the same villain from the KK hand. UTG+1 is 16.8/6.56/1.49 over 457 and this was his first orbit at the table.

Is it best to wait for the turn here? What effect does having the Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] have on this decision?

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: I am UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
I raise, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, I bet, UTG+1 raises, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, SB 3-bets, BB folds

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nah, gas it now and hopefully fold out UTG+1. wtf is that guy cold-calling first in with anyway? weird.

DMBFan23 · #4 12-12-2005, 09:20 AM

Hey bob,

I think UTG+1 will be calling with whatever he thought was good enough to raise with, though I do normally just cap the flop OOP.

Mempho · #5 12-12-2005, 12:01 PM

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Hey bob,

I think UTG+1 will be calling with whatever he thought was good enough to raise with, though I do normally just cap the flop OOP.

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I don't think a cap is going to push UTG+1 out here so I would cede the value of a flop cap in order to get him to lay down for 2BB on the turn. Losing the EV on the flop has got to be more than balanced out by the equity edge we gain on pushing him out on the turn. Now, if he wants to call 2 cold on the turn, that's his prerogative, but it's likely an error.

KDawgCometh · #6 12-12-2005, 03:29 PM

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Hey bob,

I think UTG+1 will be calling with whatever he thought was good enough to raise with, though I do normally just cap the flop OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think a cap is going to push UTG+1 out here so I would cede the value of a flop cap in order to get him to lay down for 2BB on the turn. Losing the EV on the flop has got to be more than balanced out by the equity edge we gain on pushing him out on the turn. Now, if he wants to call 2 cold on the turn, that's his prerogative, but it's likely an error.

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I disagree, the pot is now ginormous, so I don't know how much a turn raise will protect our hand, and I'm not sure it will be of that much more value. With this hand and this size of the pot, I want to put as many bets as possible right now since I am very certain that I am ahead here and gain as much value right now as possilbe

Mempho · #7 12-12-2005, 03:44 PM

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hey bob,

I think UTG+1 will be calling with whatever he thought was good enough to raise with, though I do normally just cap the flop OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think a cap is going to push UTG+1 out here so I would cede the value of a flop cap in order to get him to lay down for 2BB on the turn. Losing the EV on the flop has got to be more than balanced out by the equity edge we gain on pushing him out on the turn. Now, if he wants to call 2 cold on the turn, that's his prerogative, but it's likely an error.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, the pot is now ginormous, so I don't know how much a turn raise will protect our hand, and I'm not sure it will be of that much more value. With this hand and this size of the pot, I want to put as many bets as possible right now since I am very certain that I am ahead here and gain as much value right now as possilbe

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Let me ask you this, then. If you don't think a turn raise will protect our hand, would you rather him pay 4 small bets and 1 big bet to see the river or pay 3 small bets and 2 big bets on the river.

Of course, this works on an assumption that usually holds but is not always true: that the SB will check the turn because you capped the flop and that he will bet the turn if you call the flop. Either of these assumptions could be in error, especially given the dangerous nature of the board.

I do understand the reasoning of getting in the bets now. Basically, you seem to be saying that the turn card could cause "all hell to break loose" and therefore it might become unraiseable?

Nick Royale · #8 12-13-2005, 12:48 PM

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hey bob,

I think UTG+1 will be calling with whatever he thought was good enough to raise with, though I do normally just cap the flop OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think a cap is going to push UTG+1 out here so I would cede the value of a flop cap in order to get him to lay down for 2BB on the turn. Losing the EV on the flop has got to be more than balanced out by the equity edge we gain on pushing him out on the turn. Now, if he wants to call 2 cold on the turn, that's his prerogative, but it's likely an error.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, the pot is now ginormous, so I don't know how much a turn raise will protect our hand, and I'm not sure it will be of that much more value. With this hand and this size of the pot, I want to put as many bets as possible right now since I am very certain that I am ahead here and gain as much value right now as possilbe

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I disagree with both of your reasonings.

KDawg, why don't you think hands will fold getting 13.5:2 on the turn if we succeed in raising the turn? Many hands should and would fold.

Mempho, by taking your line you're making it correct for utg+1 to call the flop with an overpair, while capping would give that hand incorrect odds. An overpair is his most likely holding imo, so I think capping the flop is the best play.

It seems to me you're just looking at a big pot and don't take into consideration what cards your opponent might have.

Mempho · #9 12-12-2005, 11:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SB is 27.9/14.31/2.52 over 6436 and is the same villain from the KK hand. UTG+1 is 16.8/6.56/1.49 over 457 and this was his first orbit at the table.

Is it best to wait for the turn here? What effect does having the Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] have on this decision?

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: I am UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
I raise, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, I bet, UTG+1 raises, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, SB 3-bets, BB folds

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nah, gas it now and hopefully fold out UTG+1. wtf is that guy cold-calling first in with anyway? weird.

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Probably floating 77-99 or suited broadway.

Dazarath · #10 12-12-2005, 06:19 AM

Having the Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] means that you have a higher likely hood of having 2 clean outs if you're behind. Also, it lessens the chance of a redraw if you spike a Q. Lastly, if a 3rd [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] falls, there's a small chance your Q-high flush draw is live.

I think waiting for the turn to raise a good card is good (I like a cap as well). If a 3 or 5 falls, it allows you to save money (maybe a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] as well). And if a blank falls, you can pump the pot when you have more equity.