Missed value, how much?

#1 10-26-2005, 02:01 AM

Villain is a complete unknown. after the flop, i figured just to call down. obviously i missed some value....
looking back i should have c/r turn?
sorry if this is really basic, just unsure of how to proceed in this situation in full ring. thanks in advance.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (9 handed) converter

SB ($238)
Hero ($198)
UTG ($356.40)
UTG+1 ($223)
MP1 ($117.40)
MP2 ($200)
MP3 ($216.35)
CO ($218.10)
Button ($129.80)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls $2, 3 folds, Button calls $2, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($8) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $6, MP1 raises to $12, Button folds, SB folds, Hero calls $6.

Turn: ($32) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets $8, Hero calls $8.

River: ($48) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets $12, Hero calls $12.

Final Pot: $72

#2 10-26-2005, 02:04 AM

I think I would lead turn, and if raised, I dunno. With no read 3-bet allin I guess.

#3 10-26-2005, 02:10 AM

I probably would have reraised the flop

but as it was played, I definitely raise that turn

Macquarie · #4 10-26-2005, 04:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I probably would have reraised the flop

but as it was played, I definitely raise that turn

[/ QUOTE ]

I think reraising the flop is a mistake. What hands are going to call a three bet here?

I think your turn check-call plan is good provided villain makes a reasonable-sized turn bet. Since he makes a lame bet, you need to raise him to protect your hand, and to build a little larger pot. Remember that we need to keep TPGK hands from folding, so we can't gun it out too much.

Macquarie · #5 10-26-2005, 04:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think I would lead turn, and if raised, I dunno. With no read 3-bet allin I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you want to put your stack on this> it was not raised preflop, but I suppose villain might just have JJ. The only other possible hands you beat are TPGK. None of these hands are going to call a three-bet all in, and so I think you're just paying off the sets with that move.

#6 10-26-2005, 04:37 AM

Thats the thing, if he calls your 3-bet, you're beaten.

If you follow the check-call line, you have NO idea where you stand. He keeps betting, you keep calling...you end up losing more. If you 3-bet the flop, you take the pot right there, or you cut your losses.

Had the turn or river bets been larger by villain, Hero can easily lose alot more money here taking the c/c line.

Macquarie · #7 10-26-2005, 04:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Thats the thing, if he calls your 3-bet, you're beaten.

If you follow the check-call line, you have NO idea where you stan.d He keeps betting, you keep calling...you end up losing more. If you 3-bet the flop, you take the pot right there, or you cut your losses.

Had the turn or river bets been larger by villain, Hero can easily lose alot more money here taking the c/c line.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really dislike this thinking. It's the classic argument - lets make a big three bet, and then we know where we stand.

You admit yourself, if villain calls, we are beaten. This bet is certainly not as good a play as the smooth call. It's a principle of poker that we should try never to make a bet that only better hands will call.

Justifying the bet by saying it prevents us making mistakes later in the hand is not reasonable. We should just call his raise and play some poker later in the hand. We can get more information on later streets for the same price, and make +EV decisions.

Oh, and we know exactly where we are in this hand. Way ahead or way behind. Don't build a big pot out of position here.

#8 10-26-2005, 04:46 AM

Its not for the same price...if Villain starts betting the pot or 3/4 the pot on turn and river, you're paying MUCH more than you would if you 3-bet the flop first. In addition, you STILL don't know where you are, unless you raise the turn.

Plus, the Fold Equity on the flop is pretty high imo. You're beaten by 3 hands, but there are alot more than 3 hands that would min-raise the flop in late position.

The amount of money you gain when someone folds, plus the money you save when you are actually beaten, makes 3-betting a good option, at least thats what I think.

Macquarie · #9 10-26-2005, 04:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Its not for the same price...if Villain starts betting the pot or 3/4 the pot on turn and river, you're paying MUCH more than you would if you 3-bet the flop first. In addition, you STILL don't know where you are, unless you raise the turn.

Plus, the Fold Equity on the flop is pretty high imo. You're beaten by 3 hands, but there are alot more than 3 hands that would min-raise the flop in late position.

The amount of money you gain when someone folds, plus the money you save when you are actually beaten, makes 3-betting a good option, at least thats what I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

One minute. You are saying we have fold-equity because we fold out the hands we are beating?! We don't want to fold the hands we are beating! We want them to put more money in the pot....

We have no fold equity, which I would have defined as folding a hand we beat. This is exacly we don't make a big bet here. Not worse hands will call, and we have no fold equity against better hands.

The check call line is certainly harder to play that three betting the flop, but IMO has a much higher EV.

#10 10-26-2005, 04:52 AM

ok, so villain bets 32 on the turn. What do you do?

If you're not raising the flop, you have to bet the turn then. You can't let the raiser have control of the hand.