check the turn?

[Monty Cantsin]

The villain in this hand is loose and aggressive, but not maniacal.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed)

Preflop: Monty is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">Monty raises</font>, SB calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (5 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Monty bets</font>, SB calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
SB checks...

Should I check the turn because I picked up a bunch of outs or should I keep betting and give him another chance to fold?

Also, pre-flop too thin against loose blinds?

/mc

[J.R.]

I don't like raising too much because you don't have much preflop stealing equity against a loose opponent (how loose, and how aggressive?), so they have to be play poorly postflop to give your hand much raising value (in a typcial 5-10 game where there is a lot of bad play this is a spot you can pass on unless it looks particularly favorable). With your hand you want to be against an opponent who will either fold when you bet most flops or hopelessly misplay when you connect and call down all kinds of garbage. This hand has value if you play postflop very well and read your opponent well, but if that isn't the case you don't have much of an edge here unless the oppenont(s) play bad (eithe too tight or too loose).

This is an easy turn check as the board isn't drawy (unless this opponent would get agressive on the flop with a pair- which isn't the case on an A high board unless they are bluffing- ussually an A will wait [and a J may not get invovled until you show weakness], but a bluff will fire, IMO), the cards are the type to connect with preflop raising hands, so if he called the flop he isn't scared you have a piece of the flop and is unlikely to fold on the turn (the ones who do this will become obvious), and as an aggressive player may be planning to check-raise (how often does this opponent check-raise?). Plus you have outs, so you have to call the check-raise.

[THEHANDOFGOD]

You said he's aggressive which means he'd probably bet or C/R with top or second pair on the flop, especially head's up, yes? If that's true most of the time, you probably have 15 outs to improve unless he's one of those dorks who likes to call down with KQ. I'd bet this almost everytime.

[turnipmonster]

I think this is a clear check as well. loose means he's calling you down, aggro means he'll probably bet the river after you check the turn, and if you hit he'll probably pay you off.

to me the only reason to fire is if he folds the turn too much, and that's not a problem LAG players typically have. if you have no folding equity, I think betting is most times just getting money in the pot with the worst of it.

--turnipmonster

[Monty Cantsin]

[ QUOTE ]
This hand has value if you play postflop very well...

[/ QUOTE ]

I knew there was something I was forgetting.

[ QUOTE ]
...an aggressive player may be planning to check-raise ... Plus you have outs, so you have to call the check-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what happened. Then I missed and folded the river.

This is the type of hand where I can't stop myself from hammering on the turn waiting for my folding equity to kick in. I'm still struggling to figure out 6-max and the right way to be aggressive. When I raise and am heads up I want to keep betting until played back at, but in retrospect this is a good place where that's a bad plan. Thanks for the feedback.

/mc

[J.R.]

[ QUOTE ]
This hand has value if you play postflop very well...


I knew there was something I was forgetting.



[/ QUOTE ]

I meant that in the context of being against a player who will defend their blinds loosely (which is not what you want with T9s) and who will not play really weak tight or really loosely postflop but against whom you otherwise don't have a great read. I wasn't saying you don't play well postflop (although your question implies a great deal of uncertainty), just that it isn't always worth pushing thin hands against players who defend enough in the blinds and aren't horible postflop players. I think this is a marginal raise in this spot unless you have specific further info telling you it isn't.

When learning 6-max (I presume you are getting your feet weet) it may best to pass on thin spots where your inexperience will maxmize your downside and minimize your upside, thus hurting your ev and adding variance. Start tight and add hands as you get more comfortable, the games are loose enough that you can win without pushing stuff on the margins.

[THEHANDOFGOD]

That's the same mindset I often find myself in. I took a shower and I reconsidered my previous "keep firing" stance. I suppose one other thing to consider is how often he plays strong on the flop with a hand but given the small pot size and the fact that you have nothing to do but bluff if you miss begs for a turn check.

[THEHANDOFGOD]

Such good advice.

[Monty Cantsin]

[ QUOTE ]
I wasn't saying you don't play well postflop...

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense taken! That was just some of my hilarious self-deprecating wit.

Seriously though, my postflop skills are not where they need to be to get value from this situation. Your point is a good one.

To be honest I think sometimes I put myself in these thin situations because I'm so impatient to learn and improve and I don't mind losing some money while doing it.

Thanks again for the comments.

/mc