First one to Rebuy?

[Troy92]

I finally went and checked out the local casino’s $100 NL single-rebuy tournament. Based on what I had seen on 2+2, I was all set with my $210. I was the 51st person to register (out of 65) and was curious as to how many others would be starting out with 3000 chips. “You would be the first one,” was the tournament director’s reply. Now what?

I decided to wait. Maybe I could win some early hands and save my $100. Otherwise, my plan was to rebuy early on. Within 15 minutes 2 players were out of their initial chips and had to go to their wallets. The first guy was a calling station that had won the last hand or two and was now up to about 3000 chips. A couple others had a little over 2000 chips. I had 1350 of my original 1500 chips. This seemed to be the right time to rebuy.

Everyone talks about the play at Party, but I couldn’t believe the loose calls that were going on in this game. I saw players call good sized bets after the flop twice with just pp 3’s. The calling station won a three way pot by calling flop and turn bets with bottom pair, bottom kicker. On that hand, the button folded instead of overcalling on the turn and the BB had been betting with nothing. Unfortunately, I was completely card dead. The few times I got fair cards, I was already beaten to the pot.

I caught 99 in MP2 with about 2100 in chips and the BB of 150. Calling station limped UTG and MP1 raised it to 500. MP1 just moved to the table so I didn’t have a read on him so I decided to muck. Can I make a play here?

At the 100/200 level (25 ante) with 1500 left in chips, I got AQo in the SB and was ready to come over the top of the limpers when CO raised it 1500. I wasn’t ready to call a coin flip at best for my tournament life and again gave up the hand.

The next hand I did push A5o against one limper and got called by a loose BB who had 53s. The limper folded. Caught the ace and avoided the straight on the river to get back in the game. This was the only hand that I won all night. Also, it was my only bet/raise all night. All my other plays had been checking in the blind or limping.

The big hand in question came at the 200/400 level, antes of 100, 8-handed. I had 2000 in chips with KQo in MP1. Unfortunately, UTG+1 went all-in for his last 1800. Without the antes I probably wait, particularly with several players to act behind me. However, the antes were killing my stack and I wasn’t going to have many more opportunities to play so I pushed all my chips in. I was pleased to see I was actually ahead of UTG+1’s KT. However, we had been called by the BB with A5s, who knocked us both out when nobody improved. Was my call here ok?

I did accomplish one of my goals last night—which was to get a feel for the tournament play and the players at the casino. I lasted an hour and 50 minutes with no cards and got to just a little over a table away from the final table and the money. Just give me a couple hands and I think I can be rather competitive in this tournament in the future.

[schwza]

i think that's a pretty bad call. a push from UTG+1 is threatening, and there are a lot of people to act behind you. you're not in desperation mode yet - muck it.

[cferejohn]

I hate antes that big. Dicey call there, but not that bad given that structure. With that much in antes, you more or less have to take a coin flip if you can get one.

As for waiting to rebuy, there is a single-rebuy tournament at Lucky Chances (1000 chips initially, +1500 for the rebuy). All of the good players I've talked to agree that you pretty much have to take the rebuy at some point. Some of them like to hang on it is "suckout insurance". I can see the logic (giving up some EV for lower variance), but personally I think that you give up too much, too often, so I always take it immediately.

You mention the idea of not taking the rebuy if you "win some hands early". How big would your stack have to get to consider not taking the rebuy? I would want mine to have gotten at *least* 5x the initial stack before I would consider it, and even then I think I would still want it (maybe at 8x, I'd think about passing it up).

I also thought it was funny you said that someone "caught" your A5 with 35s. Umm, I don't think you are the one who was caught here. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[SossMan]

In single rebuy tournaments I usually wait until I bust out to take the rebuy. I think having some bad beat insurance makes up for the lost chance at doubling up with a bigger stack. I always take the add on if I haven't had to rebuy. If I see that there are players making really loose calls / raises and they have doubled up, I may take the rebuy early if I feel like I can target them.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
but personally I think that you give up too much, too often, so I always take it immediately.


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How could that be calculated? I wonder if this is one of those "you'll never know" questions. I know that the depends part of the "it depends" answer is definitely the skill level and looseness of your opponents.
I think that the looser/more aggressive your opponents are, the more I would be inclined to take the rebuy right away.

[Troy92]

Thanks everyone for the responses. I was expecting the range of the KQ call as being "Dicey … more or less have to take a coin flip if you can get one" to "pretty bad call"--(appreciate the bluntness). It was my first tournament with antes and I was starting to feel the pressure from them.

Haven't played too many rebuy tournaments. This was the first one that I played that you could rebuy before busting out. Paying attention to chip distribution looks like a good factor for deciding when to rebuy. The other players were waiting until they busted to rebuy. I like the idea of buying in relatively early to take advantage of loose players with deeper stacks. Most of the time I would expect to eventually put in the extra $100 by the end of the rebuy period. There are no add-ons for this MTT. Final rebuys = 7.5x BB for the round following the rebuy period. 5x the initial buy-in would be almost 40x BB at this level. I wouldn't mind being in that position. Is it enough to forego rebuys altogether?

[cferejohn]

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I think that the looser/more aggressive your opponents are, the more I would be inclined to take the rebuy right away.

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Interesting. For most people I talk to, this is exactly the situation where they will *not* take the rebuy. Reason being that against loose/aggressive opponents they are likely to be able to get all their chips in with the best hand fairly early, but of course, they will be playing for all their chips, so they save the rebuy in case they get sucked out on in this situation. If they are playing at a tight table, they are unlikely to end up in a situation where all their chips are on the line early on (unless they get an AA v. KK/set-over-set situation or something like that).

OK, OK, the real reason is that I'd rather just have all my chips and not have one more thing to think about. I hate thinking. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[SossMan]

If you are playing at a tight table, it is unlikely that you would get all your chips in the middle anyway. At this table, you are just as likely to be the "set over setee as you are the set over seter" or the KK in the KK vs. AA.

OTOH, don't you want to be able to take advantage of someone who is pushing everytime he gets top pair on the flop? If he sucks out, well, that sucks, but I think this is where the biggest advantage of doubling up a double sized stack comes into play...where you are most likely to be able to get your chips in the pot in a very good situation.
I guess it has more to do with the caliber of my opponents and less to do with the aggressiveness/passiveness of my opponents.

P.S. my spelling sucks...i think i have like 9 too many S's in the last sentence.

[luv2chkraze]

In a single rebuy tourney I'm in the school of not rebuying until I bust out. If I don't bust, then just before the break, I'll do my rebuy. I do this because I was once playing in a single rebuy tourney and decided to get the rebuy early on. Well, about 2 minutes later I got dealt AA in the BB and had a raise and 2 re-raises in front of me. I pushed, the original raiser folded and the 2 reraisers called me. I had AA, they had KK and QQ respectively. 2 kings on the flop, and I'm out. Had I not rebought, I would still have been able to buy more chips.

On a side note, does anyone find it funny when, after making a rebuy and getting, say, 2 T500 chips, you make it to the final table with a mountain of those T500 chips? I always find myself looking at 2 out of the maybe 100 or 200 chips in front of me and think to myself "What the hell did I need to rebuy for?" Obviously, I'm saying it in jest, but I still find it kind of amusing. Then again, I'm a doofus [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
In a single rebuy tourney I'm in the school of not rebuying until I bust out. If I don't bust, then just before the break, I'll do my rebuy. I do this because I was once playing in a single rebuy tourney and decided to get the rebuy early on. Well, about 2 minutes later I got dealt AA in the BB and had a raise and 2 re-raises in front of me. I pushed, the original raiser folded and the 2 reraisers called me. I had AA, they had KK and QQ respectively. 2 kings on the flop, and I'm out. Had I not rebought, I would still have been able to buy more chips.


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This is exactly why you *should* rebuy. If you had won that hand, as you would the majority of the time, you'd have 6x rather than 3x (where x is the starting stack). That's worth the risk.

So KK had rebought immediately as well?

[ QUOTE ]
On a side note, does anyone find it funny when, after making a rebuy and getting, say, 2 T500 chips, you make it to the final table with a mountain of those T500 chips? I always find myself looking at 2 out of the maybe 100 or 200 chips in front of me and think to myself "What the hell did I need to rebuy for?" Obviously, I'm saying it in jest, but I still find it kind of amusing. Then again, I'm a doofus [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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Well, jest noted, but the reason is that really you don't *add* to your stack in poker, you double it, or portions of it. And if you start with say 300 instead of 100 before you start doubling, your final result is going to be 3x larger. That's an oversimplification, but that's the general reason...