a common situation i may be misplaying

newhizzle · #1 08-10-2005, 11:12 AM

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

end of first orbit, no reads

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, 5 folds, SB raises, 1 fold, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, UTG+2 folds, SB calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

can i get away from this anywhere?
or should i be more aggressive?

W. Deranged · #2 08-10-2005, 11:16 AM

1. Raise pre-flop. Your opponents will call with much inferior hands. UTG limping is okay I guess, because this hand plays pretty well multi-way, but I think raising is better.

2. Flop raise is standard.

3. The turn is sort of a tough spot. SB is quite possibly playing a better A here, but with 6.5 BB already in the pot by the time you face your turn decision, I don't particularly like folding here (though I doubt it's horrible). Considering that there is a diamond draw present, and that certain opponents may occasionally lay down better hands (again, this is like a 1 time in 50 kind of thing but it rules when it works), I prefer:

Raise the turn and take a free showdown.

Edit: The free showdown play is excellent here because you can pretty easily fold to either a turn reraise or a river donk-bet.

deetle · #3 08-10-2005, 11:23 AM

He leads on the turn when the 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] hits after you raise the flop. I think he puts you on a flush draw so I would raise the turn.

Sarge85 · #4 08-10-2005, 11:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Raise the turn and take a free showdown.

Edit: The free showdown play is excellent here because you can pretty easily fold to either a turn reraise or a river donk-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually don't like a Free showdown play here.

I think it works better if there is a player still behind you that may have been drawing, or playing a weaker Ace that you stand to make some money against.

Here I can't see any money coming out of a Turn Raise, other than what you said may happen - I get three-bet and/or face a river bet. --

Could be misapplied on my part.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

flair1239 · #5 08-10-2005, 11:25 AM

I am not folding this anywhere.

His stop and go is interesting. It couild mean that he has a big hand and wanted to extract Big street bets from you; rather than 3-betting the flop and having you fold the turn.

But he could have also put you on a flush draw and be preventing a free card.

I would expect to be beat here much of the time. But from the turn on, you only need to win this less than 25% of the time. Which looking at the potential hand combinations on the river, looks like you can probably eke that out.

flair1239 · #6 08-10-2005, 11:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
1. Raise pre-flop. Your opponents will call with much inferior hands. UTG limping is okay I guess, because this hand plays pretty well multi-way, but I think raising is better.

2. Flop raise is standard.

3. The turn is sort of a tough spot. SB is quite possibly playing a better A here, but with 6.5 BB already in the pot by the time you face your turn decision, I don't particularly like folding here (though I doubt it's horrible). Considering that there is a diamond draw present, and that certain opponents may occasionally lay down better hands (again, this is like a 1 time in 50 kind of thing but it rules when it works), I prefer:

Raise the turn and take a free showdown.

Edit: The free showdown play is excellent here because you can pretty easily fold to either a turn reraise or a river donk-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Deranged,

Since we limped PF, do you think it makes it more likely he will continue firing on the river with something like KK or TT.

I just ran some combinations, and we are ahead of a pretty good percentage of his probable hands.

I would lean more towrds calling down (rather than yesterday), because I think he might keep coming as our UTG limp, really does not scream "I have an Ace".

That said I don't think we get three bet by a worse hand too often (But I think there is more of a chance that we do than in the hand yesterday). But there are plenty of combinations of worse hands that he might come with on the river.

W. Deranged · #7 08-10-2005, 11:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I am not folding this anywhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you get three-bet on the turn by an unknown who raised out of the small blind, you still intend to call this down?

I realize this is a little moot because you are not advocating a turn raise, but I think there are certainly situations where this hand has to be let go.

And being good 25% of the time is not a totally small number.

Honestly, I realize I'm totally indifferent between a turn raise/free showdown and a call down on this hand against an unknown. The fact is that we are almost never getting three-bet by a hand we're beating, and we are almost never going to fold out a better hand. The play of the hand also makes it very unlikely villain is on a flush draw. Therefore, the call down and the free showdown play should show almost exactly identical EV against a standard/unknown player and I don't think there's all that much up for debating here.

In a live game against tough opponents, I'm fully raising the turn here half the time and calling down half the time.

Against an opponent with any tendency to lay down big hands, I'm raising the turn.

Against an aggro/tricky opponent I'm calling down.

W. Deranged · #8 08-10-2005, 11:38 AM

Flair,

I guess the fact that we could fold out a hand like KK or TT might be the only reason to lean toward calling down and not raising here, but, as I said in my last post, I think it basically ends up being a push if we call down.

My guess is that a hand like KK or TT that leads the turn is likely not going to bet the river if we call the turn, putting us on an A or a draw. Such a hand might call a river bet from us, but given our hand I don't think we can consistently find a value bet on the river anyway, so I don't think that much matters. Therefore, if we raise the turn and fold out KK-TT, I don't think we lose anything, because I don't see us getting another bet from those hands by calling down anyway the majority of the time.

It's a good point though, and may push the decision toward a call down against an unknown (or particularly against a TAG... though I'm calling down against aggros. anyway) by like small fractions of a bet.

flair1239 · #9 08-10-2005, 11:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am not folding this anywhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you get three-bet on the turn by an unknown who raised out of the small blind, you still intend to call this down?

I realize this is a little moot because you are not advocating a turn raise, but I think there are certainly situations where this hand has to be let go.

And being good 25% of the time is not a totally small number.

Honestly, I realize I'm totally indifferent between a turn raise/free showdown and a call down on this hand against an unknown. The fact is that we are almost never getting three-bet by a hand we're beating, and we are almost never going to fold out a better hand. The play of the hand also makes it very unlikely villain is on a flush draw. Therefore, the call down and the free showdown play should show almost exactly identical EV against a standard/unknown player and I don't think there's all that much up for debating here.

In a live game against tough opponents, I'm fully raising the turn here half the time and calling down half the time.

Against an opponent with any tendency to lay down big hands, I'm raising the turn.

Against an aggro/tricky opponent I'm calling down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, if I raised the turn and got three-bet, I am done.

But, do you think the SB villian calls down with KK-TT after getting raised on the flop and the turn?

W. Deranged · #10 08-10-2005, 11:43 AM

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But, do you think the SB villian calls down with KK-TT after getting raised on the flop and the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I answered this one before you replied. Basically, I think in like 95% of situations in this hand a turn raise and a call down work out to be the same.