a common situation i may be misplaying

[lil']

As Deranged noted, You can raise preflop with this, as most 3-6 players will call you with worse hands. It may have made the hand much easier to play postflop.

Given that you didn't raise preflop, your hand is somewhat disguised, but you can't be overly confident in your kicker.

So call down the turn bet and bet the river if checked to.

Raising the turn is not necessary, and opens us up to being 3 bet. Just call it down, as boring as that sounds. A better ace is not folding on this junky board.

And, I think you probably knew that you played it fine postflop before you posted it, but just felt dirty because you called down. Sometimes it's the right play, though.

[MrEngenic]

I've thought about the flop raise. Why would we want to raise the flop here? UTG+2 probably doesn't have low cards since he limped in EP. Unless he has a pair or a flush draw he needs a runner runner to win and he's not folding a flush draw. We don't need to raise to protect our hand since he would make a mistake by calling by almost all hands we put him on. If he has specifically AJ or AQ, will fold a raise AND SB doesn't have AK we gain with a raise.

I like just calling this down. If we raise the flop it is so we can find out where we stand and fold if 3-bet.

I'm pretty sure he's not on a flush draw. Of all the flush draws he could have, he would probably only raise K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or maybe Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] preflop. The donkbet looks more like he puts you on a flush draw. So it's just a question if you think he is betting TT-KK or AK-AQ. He'll do this with pockets at least 25 % of the time so I think you should call down.

[MrEngenic]

A note about the free showdown raise.
I don't like a free showdown raise here because he will often fold a pocket if we raise but he will check/call the river if we just call. AJ-AK will probably not fold and sometimes even 3-bet. It's especially bad if he has AK, 3-bets, we fold and a T would have come on the river.

Since we will pay 2 BB to see a showdown calling down is MUCH better than free showdown raise. We gain nothing by raising, only lose.

One exception is if we think he could fold AJ-AK. If he's that kind of player, raise every time but I don't think many players would do that.

[SeaEagle]

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Since we will pay 2 BB to see a showdown calling down is MUCH better than free showdown raise. We gain nothing by raising, only lose.


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I think the turn raise and call down are very close in this one - probably the turn raise gets a slight edge. One of the differences between this and yesterday's hand is that villian may have well improved on the turn card.

If he has a 4, he might be betting an OESD in which case we gain by raising. If he has 66, then we're drawing dead and we'll save chips folding to a 3-bet vs the 6% of the time we catch a river T.

To suggest we never gain by raising is incorrect. We gain any time villian is on a draw, and there are more draws than there were in yesterday's hand.

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It's especially bad if he has AK, 3-bets, we fold and a T would have come on the river.


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This is a pretty specific situation. It's almost the same likelyhood that we'll call and he'll spike a third K to his KK and beat us on the river.

[lil']

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If he has a 4, he might be betting an OESD in which case we gain by raising. If he has 66, then we're drawing dead and we'll save chips folding to a 3-bet vs the 6% of the time we catch a river T.

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Why would he have a 4 or 66? He raised preflop from the SB. Simple hand reading should eliminate those hands.

[DMBFan23]

as others mentioned raise preflop, but wha'eva.

I think your postflop play is fine, if he had AK, A9, KK/QQ, whatever, make a note. but I tend to err on the side of ensuring one bet on each street and a showdown when playing these sort of WA/WB situations against an unknown

[W. Deranged]

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If he has a 4, he might be betting an OESD in which case we gain by raising. If he has 66, then we're drawing dead and we'll save chips folding to a 3-bet vs the 6% of the time we catch a river T.

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Why would he have a 4 or 66? He raised preflop from the SB. Simple hand reading should eliminate those hands.

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Hand-reading is a very good thing...

Villain's range here is really quite narrow and so this decision actually becomes a very precise one.

One thing I mentioned before but want to reiterate is this:

If we are worried about losing a bet by folding a high pocket pair with a turn raise, do we really actually lose a bet?

If we call and are checked to on the river, are we always betting here? Consider particularly if the river completes a flush draw, as villain will often check a hand like AK or AQ fearing the flush. My point is that there are numerous profiles for opponents against which I would not value be this river if I call the turn and are checked to. Many passive opponents will not value bet a good one pair hand here, and I think we are on average probably behind villain's range of possible hands.

Just a thought.

[damaniac]

Just because he may not always want to bet the river (or, more precisely, we may not always have the best hand when checked to on the river) does not mean we don't lose a bet when we fold out a PP. True, we aren't losing an entire bet, since sometimes things will go as you described. Far more often, though, he will do the check/call thing on the river when the river blanks (as it will the vast majority of the time). So even if we aren't losing a whole bet, we are losing a substantial portion of one, say .7 of a BB or so when he lays down a PP. And I think we bet any non-flush card against any opponent if checked to, and most of the time should be the flush card as well.

[W. Deranged]

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Just because he may not always want to bet the river (or, more precisely, we may not always have the best hand when checked to on the river) does not mean we don't lose a bet when we fold out a PP. True, we aren't losing an entire bet, since sometimes things will go as you described. Far more often, though, he will do the check/call thing on the river when the river blanks (as it will the vast majority of the time). So even if we aren't losing a whole bet, we are losing a substantial portion of one, say .7 of a BB or so when he lays down a PP. And I think we bet any non-flush card against any opponent if checked to, and most of the time should be the flush card as well.

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My question still stands, though: Are we planning on value-betting this river if checked to?

This is not an obvious question and it is very crucial to understanding how the "villain-has-a-pocket-pair" situation plays out.

[MrEngenic]

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If he has a 4, he might be betting an OESD in which case we gain by raising. If he has 66, then we're drawing dead and we'll save chips folding to a 3-bet vs the 6% of the time we catch a river T.

To suggest we never gain by raising is incorrect. We gain any time villian is on a draw, and there are more draws than there were in yesterday's hand.

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Assuming he's not a LAG but a reasonable player:
There is almost no chance he has a 4 or 66. Likewise, it's not likely he's on a flush draw. Only KQs and maybe QJs in diamonds. The chance he's on a draw is infinitesimal.

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It's especially bad if he has AK, 3-bets, we fold and a T would have come on the river.



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This is a pretty specific situation. It's almost the same likelyhood that we'll call and he'll spike a third K to his KK and beat us on the river.

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The chance is very small. But since we don't gain much by raising since a draw is almost out of the question, this is one reason why just calling is better and not equal to raising. There are other scenarios.

For raising to be correct we have to believe that he could fold a better hand, that he could call with a worse hand or that it's likely he's on a draw. Preferably a combination of two or all three conditions.
For this situation: He's probably not gonna fold a better hand, he might very well fold a worse hand which he would pay of on the river if we call and bet if checked to, and there is a very small chance he's on a draw.
= no free showdown raise