At what point will conservatives admit Bush has gone too far?

[shakingspear]

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1) I am tired of hearing the argument that other presidents and administrations did the same thing. Even if that were true, that is a poor argument.

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2) ...but the Republicans were bad too when Clinton was in charge.

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The thread is way past this, but I found it kind of funny.

[sirio11]

There is a point where parallel lines intersect.

I think that is the point.

[QuadsOverQuads]

The true kool-aid drinkers?

Never.

Don't bother them with evidence and facts, they're not listening.


q/q

[xpokerx]

I don't see the problem with the signals intelligence, there is nothing illegal about it and nothing unprecedented about it. Just curious, but where were you complaining when Clinton was doing this, and Reagan, and Carter?

[ACPlayer]

The conservatives that are still supporting the administration will never change their mind, never.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

I am not going to interfere in this US discussion, but I think that in most of these discussions the average citizen (not necessarily average "politard" [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]) is not aware that the current datamining surveillance techniques are incredible powerful and sophisticated (i.e. how many know that CIA are able to turn on the microphone on whatever cellular phone they would like to, and thus bug the room, at any time without the user noticing?). I think that if more people were aware of that, more scepticism would arise to how extensive it should be.

In Norway we had a scandal regarding previous extensive use of surveillance a decade ago. It was concluded that we are better off with less surveillance and more terror etc. than with maximum surveillance, and now the surveillance authorities' power is limited, but that's a judgement for each country to make (which surely isn't easy).

[MMMMMM]

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(i.e. how many know that CIA are able to turn on the microphone on whatever cellular phone they would like to, and thus bug the room, at any time without the user noticing?)

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How do you know this to be true, and have you any good links for us?

[tylerdurden]

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(i.e. how many know that CIA are able to turn on the microphone on whatever cellular phone they would like to, and thus bug the room, at any time without the user noticing?)

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How do you know this to be true, and have you any good links for us?

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It *might* be possible for them to do this. There are some phones that have an "auto-answer" mode, and if you have them in "silent" mode you can effectively call them and start listening. However, this is detectable simply because the display of the phone will switch to the "call active" screen.

Now, it's also possible that the CIA makes all cell manufacturers and service providers install a backdoor that lets them remotely activate the phone with no visible status indicators. Of course, this also would be detectable, since the phone will be pumping out it's normal transmission to the nearest tower. A clock radio near your phone is enough to tip you off if you have a TDMA or GSM phone. CDMA phones tend to generate less of that type of interference, but their transmissions are still detectable by rudimentary equipment.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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However, this is detectable simply because the display of the phone will switch to the "call active" screen.

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It can be activated without this.

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Now, it's also possible that the CIA makes all cell manufacturers and service providers install a backdoor that lets them remotely activate the phone with no visible status indicators.

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Not necessary to install a backdoor. The functionality is needed for other processes and is thus already present.


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Of course, this also would be detectable, since the phone will be pumping out it's normal transmission to the nearest tower. A clock radio near your phone is enough to tip you off if you have a TDMA or GSM phone. CDMA phones tend to generate less of that type of interference, but their transmissions are still detectable by rudimentary equipment.

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Yes, you can buy a detector at price appx. $1 which you can install on your phone which makes it impossible for the phone to send information (bugging the room) without you being aware (a red light will turn on).

[Arnfinn Madsen]

And while elaborating on countersurveillance (you guys may be needing it some day [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]), there exists also cellular phones that encrypts all sound collected from the microphone, thus making bugging the room very difficult (I don't know if CIA has cracked the algorythm or not). However, with such a phone you can only make calls to other similar phones, not to a regular phone.