T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser

[DcifrThs]

im going to have to go against the grain here which seems to be raise.


its a fold imo.

T9s may win, may make top pair but look at what a raise does:

1) it puts more money in the pot w/ a hand that isn't likely best.

2) you tie your opponents to a pot that you may not want to. if you have a pair they are likely to peel and there are 5 cards higher than the highest pair yoiu can make.

3) you may have more than fair share of equity, and position, but equity doesn't factor in what the hand plays out like 3 handed vs. 5 handed for 3 bets and 2 bets respectively

i can't remember what else i was thinking so i'll stop there for now.

Barron

[rigoletto]

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Jesus! I love your aggressiveness, however, in the BB?!

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Suppose you have Td9d on the button.

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[rigoletto]

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you may have more than fair share of equity, and position, but equity doesn't factor in what the hand plays out like 3 handed vs. 5 handed for 3 bets and 2 bets respectively

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Equity AND position has allways seemed like a good marriage to me! That said I don't mind a fold, but I would rather raise than call.

[helpmeout]

MLHE assumes the limpers are decent players so your T9s is likely a weak holding.

It really depends on the lineup, mostly I'd call here but if there are agros in the blinds or someone who likes to limp reraise then you can fold.

Also if the limpers are tight then they probably have hands at least as good as yours probably better.

[BarronVangorToth]

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Jesus! I love your aggressiveness, however, in the BB?!

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Suppose you have Td9d on the button.

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I'm all for raising when you maybe don't have the best hand if it's justified, but this is a spot for a call, and not a fold or a raise. 3-betting MAY get not only the blinds, but also the three limpers to fold and now you're heads-up against the cut-off guy.

That's not what you want, especially since his cut-off raise is invariably more than a steal raise, given the limpers ahead of him, and even if he's just buying the button, it's not the EV move, given the cap-risk and everything else.

By simply calling, you may lure in the blinds AND keep in the limpers, having a nice 7-way pot for 7BB going into the flop and you have a nice hand with position on the field (even though your relative position is horrid, given that you are first to act after the PF raiser).

I have to go with call > fold > raise (but the last two are pretty much almost equally bad).

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

IMO, this is a call when you can expect a 5 or 6 way pot and you're on the button with the second best drawing hand in hold'em. If you can't find it in you to ever throw a way top pair, then maybe you shouldnt be playing this hand here, but given the fact that you're really wanting to make a hand like trips, a straight, or a flush or two pair, playing the hand for these criteria makes the situation very different. I think that in a real tough game you wouldnt want to play this hand here, but then again, how often are there three limpers before the CO raises in really tough games? I'd call the bet anticipating a large multiway pot and hope the flop comes 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] blank.

This hand can be argued either way, but in the end it will largely depend on how well you play the flop and what kind of game it is.


Tex

[AceHigh]

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Raising only cost you one more small bet, but will:

1) make a bigger pot for when you hit and tie in the others.

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Aren't you the one who will be tied to the pot? If the flop comes 9 or 10 high and you get action, your likely beat, so your best flops will be ones that flop draws and you will be a dog to make you hand against top pair, etc.


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2) Possibly give you a free card.

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'Cept we prepaid for our flop free card, I'd hardly call that a bargain.


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3) sometimes get you 3-way where you might win with a top pair type hand.

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Yes, but our best flops are likely to be the ones where we flop draws and don't we want lots of opponents so more players will be around to pay us off on the river?

If we flop a flush or straight draw don't we want lots of opponents so when we ram 'n jam the flop we are getting value as dog on our raises?

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4) It will give you a more dangerous image (metagame).

All in all raising gives you more options

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I prefer more money to more options. Give me lots of opponents and I can't be losing too much equity in this hand by calling. Give me few opponents and one with an overpair and I can be taking much the worst of it.

Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qs Qh 711384 51.90 656462 47.89 2908 0.21 0.520
Kd Jd 389764 28.43 978082 71.35 2908 0.21 0.285
Tc 9c 266698 19.46 1101148 80.33 2908 0.21 0.195

[AceHigh]

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its a fold imo.
...
i can't remember what else i was thinking so i'll stop there for now.


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I don't like our position in relation to the preflop raiser, so that probably makes it a fold for me.

[rigoletto]

Well, I could be wrong - several responses seems to point to that. A few comments on your post though:

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Aren't you the one who will be tied to the pot? If the flop comes 9 or 10 high and you get action, your likely beat, so your best flops will be ones that flop draws and you will be a dog to make you hand against top pair, etc.

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You will be tied into a 5 way pot anyway with odds to call the flop on a gutshot. Exept now the pot is less likely to be raised in front of you and you might even get a free card to draw to your gutshot.

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'Cept we prepaid for our flop free card, I'd hardly call that a bargain.

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This would be true if that was the only reason to raise, but since it is not our free card only costs a fraction of a sb.

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If we flop a flush or straight draw don't we want lots of opponents so when we ram 'n jam the flop we are getting value as dog on our raises?

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There will still be upportunities to ram and jam the flop and more importantly, ram and jam when you hit, since opponents will have a harder time putting you on a hand.

[BarronVangorToth]

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You will be tied into a 5 way pot anyway with odds to call the flop on a gutshot.

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This is like bad deja vu...

And a problem is that by raising you may find not only the blinds going away, but the limpers saying, why bother calling the extra 2 when the cut-off might cap it, so they'll dump their limps and now you're heads-up.

Likely? Maybe, maybe not, but you don't know this is going to be five way. There's a big difference when the raise comes from an early spot and then people are calling two cold vs. limpers now calling an additional 2 after their limp.

Now if the hand were a HIGHER suited connector (like KQs) you'd be correct to raise.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com