Mid poket pair and no love on the flop.

#1 10-30-2005, 09:44 PM

At what point do you let go of a mid PP? I hate this. I had this same pocket pair 8 times yesterday. I suppose I shouldnt complain, as its still a winning hand, but I am looking for input. At what point do you abandon all hope?

I have the same issue with pocket 10's. Over the last 20k hands, TT is an overall loser for me and I think it is because I overplay it. Any comments appreciated.

One note.. MP2 had a VPIP of 45 and a PFR of 30. I think his PP client was broken cause he did not have a call button, he had a raise button or fold button, but no call button. MP3 was a solid TAG.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
4 folds, MP2 raises, MP3 calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP2 bets, MP3 calls, Hero folds, BB calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, MP2 bets, MP3 folds, BB calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, MP2 bets, BB folds.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

shant · #2 10-30-2005, 09:51 PM

An argument can be made for 3-betting preflop. You could have also bet this flop. Since you didn't do either, I think you hould have checkraised the flop. Against the player you described you have way too much hand to give up, and he will give you a lot of help in protecting it for you.

W. Deranged · #3 10-30-2005, 10:01 PM

Given your read, I three-bet pre-flop to either encourage the BB to fold or to get the laggy villain to cap and maybe get MP3 to fold.

Since you didn't do that, check-raising the flop to get a fold from BB is probably better; villain may three-bet and force MP3 to fold also.

The key thing, as Shant said, is to realize that against a player of this type you really have way too much hand to give up. You should approach this hand from the point of view of using the maniac to protect your hand.

#4 10-30-2005, 10:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You should approach this hand from the point of view of using the maniac to protect your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about a normal player? I hate throwing money away at a pair of second best.

brettbrettr · #5 10-30-2005, 10:38 PM

Hmm, this is close. I might peel here, not to hit an 8 mind you, but b/c I might be best right now. If this MP would bet middle pair and bottom pair after being checked to by the PFR, I'd prob call. Overcalling a TAG's call doesn't uch appeal to me though. His play is weird though, no? He's peeling on this flop? If he truly is a good TAG would than mean that he doesn't figure MP2 for the queen?

brettbrettr · #6 10-30-2005, 10:39 PM

Oh, I didn't pay close enough attention to the flop. Lead this, please.

W. Deranged · #7 10-30-2005, 10:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, I didn't pay close enough attention to the flop. Lead this, please.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think check-raising is also fine; a lot of it depends on how I view the BB and MP3. If MP3 is more likely to call two cold incorrectly, betting and hoping to get raised is better; and so on. If villain will often not raise a donk bet, then check-raising is better.

brettbrettr · #8 10-30-2005, 10:47 PM

MP3 is supposedly a "Tag" and I'd like to get rid of him. Sure, I'd like him to call two cold. But even if the read is only mostly wrong, tags don't call 2 cold that often and when they do its usually something big. I'd rather get this HU with the laggy boy. If I had top pair, I think I'd be more inclined to check-raise.

#9 10-31-2005, 12:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
An argument can be made for 3-betting preflop. You could have also bet this flop. Since you didn't do either, I think you hould have checkraised the flop. Against the player you described you have way too much hand to give up, and he will give you a lot of help in protecting it for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain this to me like I'm a four year old? I really need to understand this concept. I like the idea, but I don't know when/how to apply it.

shant · #10 10-31-2005, 12:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
An argument can be made for 3-betting preflop. You could have also bet this flop. Since you didn't do either, I think you hould have checkraised the flop. Against the player you described you have way too much hand to give up, and he will give you a lot of help in protecting it for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain this to me like I'm a four year old? I really need to understand this concept. I like the idea, but I don't know when/how to apply it.

[/ QUOTE ]
WD and Brett touched on it as well, but basically the read of MP2 is that he's a LAG, and he rarely calls. With only one overcard on this flop, and with his loose preflop raising standards, our 88 is a strong hand.

If we bet the flop into the LAG, we are hoping to exploit his LAGness because when he raises, he will face the TAG MP3 with two cold. That's good for you because the TAG will fold overcards and maybe even something like 99. Once you have him out, it's pretty easy to play against the LAG.