10/20 NL: Mediocre overpair caught in a shortstack sandwich

ZeeJustin · #1 04-13-2005, 02:41 AM

http://www.pokerhand.org/index.php?p...amp;hand=51055

I have never seen royray72 before. He sat at this table about 7 hands ago. When he sat, he bought in for 1k and posted the BB utg. He has won only 1 hand, and it was in a very uninteresting small pot. Basically, I have no read on him.

sorerichard is in my opinion very good. He might be a little on the tight side, at least preflop, but he never seems to be losing, and I have never seen him make any clear mistakes.

Edit: Turns out sorerichard is not as tight as he used to be, but for the sake of discussion, let's use my original read. It probably doesn't make much of a difference either way.

Comments on both the flop and turn are appreciated.
-ZJ

morello · #2 04-13-2005, 02:50 AM

[02:50] <morello_> if you call the flop there I think you need to call the turn
[02:50] <ZeeJustin> post in thread please

Jason Strasser · #3 04-13-2005, 02:52 AM

Completely not true.

You can call the flop for information. The fact that a tight player, and in my experience richard has been very tight, calls behind you is plenty good reason not to call the turn bet. The entire hand dynamic changes if richard folds, and he will most of the time. The combination of the fact you could be behind the unknown or behind richard behind you on the turn is good enough reason to fold.

I like this hand.

-Jason

morello · #4 04-13-2005, 02:56 AM

What hands does Richard call with that you are behind here?

It's my opinion that he would raise the flop with a set and probably with two pair. If he has a made straight he would probably call.

If he has JJ or QQ he could go either way, but he would likely fold the turn with these hands if roy bets and justin calls.

Popinjay · #5 04-13-2005, 03:01 AM

Fold this on the flop I think. you dont know much about your opponent and he is not giving you a good price to call. if you raise you are pot-committed and you could be behind very badly to a lot of hands, and even if you are ahead he is still drawing pretty live i would imagine (straight draw). these problems are only magnified when you take into account there is another guy behind you.

Jason Strasser · #6 04-13-2005, 03:02 AM

The point is that you said ZJ couldnt justify a line of calling a flop bet and folding to a turn bet. Playing the silly game of trying to get into richard's head ("He'll raise a set, call w/ a straight... etc.) is fine and dandy but the fact is that if ZJ believes Richard is capable of calling behind on the flop with a better hand then his he is perfectly justified folding the turn.

Also, don't be silly and rule out AA or KK as Richard's holdings if you do decide to run through his possible holdings. I certainly think AA or KK is feasable and I cant think of any other way to play the flop.

-Jason

morello · #7 04-13-2005, 03:02 AM

And just to clarify, I don't think it's a terrible fold or anything. You can go either way, as you can with just about any no-limit hand.

I'll admit that I'm being influenced by my read of that specific player.

morello · #8 04-13-2005, 03:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Playing the silly game of trying to get into richard's head ("He'll raise a set, call w/ a straight... etc.) is fine and dandy

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't realize that putting my opponents on a hand was "a silly game". Isn't that what I'm supposed to be doing? Getting into my opponents head?

[ QUOTE ]
but the fact is that if ZJ believes Richard is capable of calling behind on the flop with a better hand then his he is perfectly justified folding the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well yeah. Isn't that what my original post said? That he's less likely to be calling the flop with a better hand? If I thought it was likely he was calling the flop with a better hand, of course I would fold. And again, I think the decision can go either way.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, don't be silly and rule out AA or KK as Richard's holdings if you do decide to run through his possible holdings. I certainly think AA or KK is feasable

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point, he is certainly capable of having AA or KK here.

fimbulwinter · #9 04-13-2005, 03:13 AM

is it bad that my usual play here would be to fold the flop in such a position and against such (short) stacks?

fim

ZeeJustin · #10 04-13-2005, 03:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
is it bad that my usual play here would be to fold the flop in such a position and against such (short) stacks?

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

I was very close to folding on the flop. Then again, I was considering a push also...