Representation with Isolation

[blumpkin22]

Here's an advanced play I thought I'd write about to see what people think. Suppose you complete after someone limped in with a low card up, you have a 3-flush with the Ace up, and someone with a King up calls. Suppose further that on fourth street the boards read

(T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img])A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
(xx) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
(xx) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

you bet, the King calls, and the third player now raises. If you believe the third player's most likely hand is a 4-flush (and it usually is), I think the a good play is to go ahead and make it 3-bets. This will normally fold the King even if he has a pair of Kings. The play may even be correct even if you don't catch a pair on fourth street.

[peritonlogon]

I like it.... you probably have a hair more than 33% equity so if the K calls you're not in bad shape.

[Bartholow]

Yeah, I do this often with a variety of hands. A continuation of the idea that many hands do better headsup.

[zatoichi]

Having started the hand looking for a flush, I'm thinking I want people in the hand.

Catching the 8 on 3rd, I could not go on to 3-bet because I would still be hoping for a flush card to come to me on 5th, and therefore I dont want anyone out of the hand yet. The pair of 8s is improvement enough in my own mind to proceed to fifth.

SO-

Are you telling me I'm too inflexible in my thinking...that within a hand like this, I need to adapt to what develops, rather than remain stuck on what I hoped for when I started the hand?

your somewhat less advanced blind samurai masseuse

[Roland]

Interesting idea. Would you play aces the same way?
Because I’d usually check aces here (if diamonds are live; also player dependent, sometimes I bet them). Than I’d either check-raise or just call (planning to either bet out on 5th or check-raise now, again depending on the player). I’d probably play this pair + 3-flush combo the same way here. I guess I just like my pots a little smaller.
I haven’t thought this through though and it all depends on the players and what cards are dead.

[blumpkin22]

[ QUOTE ]
Would you play aces the same way?
Because I’d usually check aces here (if diamonds are live; also player dependent, sometimes I bet them).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd normally play aces the same. If I have your read, I might check-raise in both cases. For some reason though, I think bet/3-betting is more likely to fold the Kings, even though in that case he would be putting in a bet on a street and still not getting to see the next card, which is a big no-no for some.

[BeerMoney]

Why wouldn't you check-raise? If you don't get this hand heads up, you've created a mess. you will likely be four bet with what i believe will be a less than 33% equity. The thing about this play is that it gets an OK result when you are successful, and a miserable result when unsuccessful. The thing about a four-flush is that they aren't going to play incorrectly. They will be calling correctly with odds, or betting into you when you're behind.


Players who have already called a completion are very tough to shake on 4th street. I think a potential better play is to see what develops on 5th street.

[beta1607]

What is your plan on 5th if you get HU and your opponent catchs a diamond and you hit two pair? What if you catch a a baby spade?

Edit: My point is you may be bloating the pot to where it makes later streets harder to play.

[Roland]

[ QUOTE ]
Why wouldn't you check-raise? If you don't get this hand heads up, you've created a mess.

[/ QUOTE ]


Are we talking about aces or 8s now?
Anyway, you’re right - check-raising can create a mess if the kings don’t fold (and the flush draw maybe even caps). So I would only do it if a) I think there is a good chance the kings will fold and if b) I’m not sure that the flush draw really is a flush draw (say this is a loose-aggro opponent who might just have a pair, but will bet his board here if checked to.

[Jeffage]

I would say making it 3-bets here would be a standard line for me. You're going to the river this hand and it makes more money headsup than 3-handed so do what you have to do to achieve that end.

Jeff