Posting in the CO - a reply to a post in a now archived thread

[spamuell]

I remember a while back when I was pretty new to 6-max there was a thread about whether it's +EV to post in the Co. link . If you can't be bothered to read it, what basically happened is that most players said no it's -EV, just wait, then JR said he posts in the CO and everyone was up in arms about it, before he said that it's still +EV because you make more utg and in mp than you lose from posting in the CO. Then Kiddo posted the following:

If we post in CO instead of waiting for BB we will play both UTG+1 and UTG instead of waiting 3 games before arriving in BB. Thereotically we will then win 0.1BB UTG+1 and 0.1BB UTG.

But we also have a cost of posting in CO. A good player posting in BigBlind (which is as big as posting in CO, 0.5BB), will normally loose -0.15BB in big blind (he will win back 0.35 of those 0.5 he lost by being forced to post). Since CO is a better position we will, still theoretically, lose less in CO then in BB. Lets say we lose -0.1BB (we win back 0.4BB from this position).

Then we get:

Posting in CO= (-0.1)+0.1+0.1 = 0.1

Not posting (waiting for BB and not playing UTG+1 and UTG)
+-0

That is: Posting will win us 0.1BB

At the time, this persuaded me to post in the CO because I didn't examine these numbers closely enough. But, given Kiddo's assumptions that we win 0.1bb in each position and lose 0.15bb in the BB and assuming we lose 0.8bb in the sb, this works out to a win rate of (0.1 * 4) - (0.15 + 0.08) BBs per 6 hands (not hand where we post in the CO, a normal round), which is a win rate of 2.83BB/100 hands.

However, this assumes that we win the same amount UTG and MP as we do on the button, which is clearly not the case, and if one was to win significantly more from the button then this would make their overall win rate much higher than 2.83bb/100. For example, if a player won 0.1bb utg and in mp, 0.11bb in the CO and 0.13bb on the button, and lost the same amount in the the blinds as assumed above, they'd have a win rate of 3.5BB/100. It seems to me that kiddo's assumption that you win 0.2bb UTG and in MP is therefore too optimistic.

Of course, assuming that the assumption that we lose 0.1bb by posting in the CO is correct, we don't need to win 0.2bb in those positions, just any amount greater than 0.1. My PTDB doesn't have enough hands to have even close to accurate win rates by position in 6max, does anyone have any input on whether a good player's win rates are greater than 0.1bb in total in the first two positions and if so, how much by?

[jba]

sounds to me like it's close enough that it doesn't matter too much. I like to take the time waiting for my bb to get ready to play. There's a lot of setup when I play, getting windows in the right place, getting PT setup the way I want it, opening up observation windows in skins, etc.

the idea that you're losing money by waiting 2-3 mins to play is just going to lead to you running in the door when you get home, forgetting to wipe, etc.

[Alobar]

I lost my good DBs so I dont have any reliable numbers (i.e. sample size big enough) to post on CO and button win rates.

The way I took that whole debate was that, posting in the CO will lower your BB/100, but will make you more money time wise. I.E. you play 3 more hands in a session than you otherwise would have wiating for the BB, and if you can win more in UTG+MP than you lose posting in the CO, thats your extra profit for the session.

[Alobar]

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opening up observation windows in skins

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??????

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the idea that you're losing money by waiting 2-3 mins to play is just going to lead to you running in the door when you get home, forgetting to wipe, etc.

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lol, nice

[spamuell]

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the idea that you're losing money by waiting 2-3 mins to play is just going to lead to you running in the door when you get home, forgetting to wipe, etc.

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I see your point, but really not posting if it's profitable to do so is just a complete waste of time, I mean, you're already at the poker table.

[ThePenguin]

Intuitively, it seems -EV, but I do it anyway if I just sat down at a juicy table. Unless your bankroll is very low or you're close to a break-even player, i don't see what the fuss would be about.

[jba]

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opening up observation windows in skins

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??????


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poor man's datamining

[Alobar]

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
opening up observation windows in skins

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??????


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poor man's datamining

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but to your own tables? or am I just confused?

[helpmeout]

Posting in the CO sucks because you arent last to act preflop.

Examples

Loose UTG raises you have say 65s say its folded to you? You dont know whether SB or BB are gonna call

or say you have QJo in same position you call and its gets 3bet from SB or BB

[jba]

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[ QUOTE ]
opening up observation windows in skins

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??????


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poor man's datamining

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but to your own tables? or am I just confused?

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no different tables (which i make sure of while waiting for my blind) -- so I play on four tables on empire, observe 4 tables on each skin.