first 6-max hand: KQs in SB - Page 2

McGahee · #11 07-29-2005, 03:40 PM

I think you're on the right track.

PF I hate this situation. Conventional wisdom says to 3-bet any hand you're going to play, but with KQs against a tight raiser you could easily be dominated by UTG and I'd almost rather invite BB to the party by calling. Folding feels kinda dirty.

I don't have a problem with the flop or turn; though I'd probably rather just lead the flop and go from there. If he raises for a free card that's fine by me - that only means we're getting more $ in with the best hand on the flop, BB will get trapped for 2 bets, and you probably weren't going to bet the turn anyway if you didn't pick up your flush draw, right?

deception5 · #12 07-29-2005, 03:45 PM

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you probably weren't going to bet the turn anyway if you didn't pick up your flush draw, right?

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Actually the flush draw would make me consider check/calling the turn instead if the preflop raiser raised the flop. I would hate to bet the turn and get raised and have to call knowing that I'm behind. And a free card wouldn't be terrible.

@bsolute_luck · #13 07-29-2005, 03:46 PM

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you probably weren't going to bet the turn anyway if you didn't pick up your flush draw, right?

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i would guess it would depend on what fell, but most likely i would have c/r at that point. or check/call, (river card dependent) bet/call...something like that.

Leading the flop: probably a good idea based on deception's thinking that he'd raise me w/o reads, giving me more options later in the hand, plus BB would have probably called my initial bet anyways.

@bsolute_luck · #14 07-29-2005, 03:48 PM

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you probably weren't going to bet the turn anyway if you didn't pick up your flush draw, right?

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Actually the flush draw would make me consider check/calling the turn instead if the preflop raiser raised the flop. I would hate to bet the turn and get raised and have to call knowing that I'm behind. And a free card wouldn't be terrible.

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see i thought the exact opposite. i wouldn't care if it got raised as i have increased outs to beat it. i would, however, hate to have it raised w/o the additional outs knowing i'm behind with fewer ways to improve.

McGahee · #15 07-29-2005, 03:53 PM

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you probably weren't going to bet the turn anyway if you didn't pick up your flush draw, right?

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Actually the flush draw would make me consider check/calling the turn instead if the preflop raiser raised the flop. I would hate to bet the turn and get raised and have to call knowing that I'm behind. And a free card wouldn't be terrible.

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Well, that's what I was saying. If I get raised on the flop I'm check/calling the turn regardless of the turn card. If he bets I'll call with outs and BB's dead $, if he checks that's cool too, I'll value-bet the river.

imported_The Vibesman · #16 07-29-2005, 03:56 PM

I don't think I'd reraise the UTG raiser OOP either, I'm interested to see what the others say.

Thinking on the rest of it seems pretty good. Interesting hand.

deception5 · #17 07-29-2005, 04:01 PM

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see i thought the exact opposite. i wouldn't care if it got raised as i have increased outs to beat it. i would, however, hate to have it raised w/o the additional outs knowing i'm behind with fewer ways to improve.

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I used to think the same thing. And if the turn was not a diamond I would bet it.

Thing is, we might be ahead or behind now. If we hit the flush we've got a monster unexpected hand and we'd prefer to get our money in then. We also may induce a bet from a weaker hand. But I'd rather go to war on the river with the unlikely backdoor flush when I am confident I'm ahead of AA/AK/KK.

McGahee · #18 07-29-2005, 04:04 PM

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you probably weren't going to bet the turn anyway if you didn't pick up your flush draw, right?

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Actually the flush draw would make me consider check/calling the turn instead if the preflop raiser raised the flop. I would hate to bet the turn and get raised and have to call knowing that I'm behind. And a free card wouldn't be terrible.

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see i thought the exact opposite. i wouldn't care if it got raised as i have increased outs to beat it. i would, however, hate to have it raised w/o the additional outs knowing i'm behind with fewer ways to improve.

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Try to get out of this line of thinking. In general you want to bet/raise without outs and check/call with outs on the turn. Of course there are exceptions.
In this particular case I don't mind the turn bet because BB appears to be donating, and you'd hate to see this get checked thru with the best hand after only 1 bet went in on the flop.

Edit: Lets say you open raise the button and you're HU in position with A5 against a blind. He checks you bet he calls a T9x flop. I am more inclined to fire again on this turn when I have A5 than if I had AK. It's more likely you have 6 clean outs with AK, you can fold to a C/R easier w/ A5 and plus AK has slightly more showdown value if he decides to bluff the river.

@bsolute_luck · #19 07-29-2005, 04:10 PM

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see i thought the exact opposite. i wouldn't care if it got raised as i have increased outs to beat it. i would, however, hate to have it raised w/o the additional outs knowing i'm behind with fewer ways to improve.

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I used to think the same thing. And if the turn was not a diamond I would bet it.

Thing is, we might be ahead or behind now. If we hit the flush we've got a monster unexpected hand and we'd prefer to get our money in then. We also may induce a bet from a weaker hand. But I'd rather go to war on the river with the unlikely backdoor flush when I am confident I'm ahead of AA/AK/KK.

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...that's true. i probably wouldn't get paid for my flush by playing the way i did. so what would you do if you donkbet the turn non-[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and are raised? call and fold the river UI? i guess it would be hard for me to fold TPGK if i'm raised on the turn.

...but i guess rare is the person raising with a hand that doesn't beat the K on the flop unless he views me as a bluffer (obviously not this hand). i'll have to think about that one.

okay, what about this question: what if you didn't have the flush draw, say K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]- would you rather donkbet w/o the flush draw on a board that looks like a flush draw? probably too many questions [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] but that's how i think [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

@bsolute_luck · #20 07-29-2005, 04:12 PM

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In this particular case I don't mind the turn bet because BB appears to be donating, and you'd hate to see this get checked thru with the best hand after only 1 bet went in on the flop.

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this was more my reason for it: i didn't want it getting checked through.