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  #1  
Old 09-23-2005, 11:58 AM
GoodOL GoodOL is offline
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Default What separates a good player from an advanced player?

Hello all. I've been playing poker full time for close to two years....anywhere from $3/$6 to $10/$20 (4 tables, 10 seated mostly) and have been consistently winning. However, I only made $20K last year (I bounced around sites, propped,....bad runs, learning curve, bad play etc....). I have played better this year but still have only made $30K so far. I can't tell if I'm not playing optimally or if it's just bad luck. My winrate is a little less than 1.0BB/100 hands (not counting rakeback).

I am a 15/8/1.6 player. I've read all the poker books, some of them several times. I am not a regular here, but have read many posts. I understand many advanced concepts. I've played many hands.

I play against some 17/15/2.2 type players and notice that they are the toughest opponents (and therefore think maybe I should be playing as they do). However, I can't help but notice these players making, what appears to be, bad plays (i.e. three betting my UTG raise with something like ATs then calling me down when they miss)....but, they seem to consistently win and to wreak havoc for me.

I guess my question is...what might I be missing? I know this is a difficult question to answer...I guess I'm just looking for some input. Am I playing too tight and conservatively (I've tried playing looser, but it always seems to end up killing me)? Should I be playing 6max games? What do you think separates a solid player from an advanced player?
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  #2  
Old 09-23-2005, 02:43 PM
phish phish is offline
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Default Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?

[ QUOTE ]


I play against some 17/15/2.2 type players and notice that they are the toughest opponents (and therefore think maybe I should be playing as they do). However, I can't help but notice these players making, what appears to be, bad plays (i.e. three betting my UTG raise with something like ATs then calling me down when they miss)....but, they seem to consistently win and to wreak havoc for me.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not trying to answer your question in full, but I do want to comment on your observation above. What I suspect happens is that these guys (who are still too tight at 17 vpip) are running over you a little. Often they three-bet then are able to bet you off the hand later. The few times you do see show-down, you see how weak their hands were.

My guess is that you are not tenacious enough post-flop. You probably follow a fit or fold strategy which work for some games but are not optimal for the games you play.

I find that the most aggressive guy at a table gains an edge by his aggression alone. (Now he may have other weaknesses that offset it, such as playing too loose.) Sounds like not only are you not the most aggressive at the table, but you are letting the aggressive ones run you over. I'm not suggesting that you ratchet up your aggression if it's not comfortable for you, but I think it helps to explain your less than satisfactory results.
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  #3  
Old 09-23-2005, 03:06 PM
CardSharpCook CardSharpCook is offline
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Default Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?

I love having 17/15 players at my table. It is like they almost get it... but they don't. Hyper-agros that pay off like a slot machine with comparitively weak hands. Be willing to go to more bets with these players. Also be willing to call down with 99 on a 1 or 2 broadway board. I think their problem is that they recognize the hands that are open-raises, but not those hands that are folds instead of 3bets. Just be aware of what that means.
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Old 09-23-2005, 03:17 PM
highlife highlife is offline
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Default Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?

[ QUOTE ]
My winrate is a little less than 1.0BB/100 hands (not counting rakeback).

[/ QUOTE ]
Over how many hands? I assume this is over 150k+ hands considering how much money you have won at the stakes you play.
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  #5  
Old 09-23-2005, 03:41 PM
nykenny nykenny is offline
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Default Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?

GoodOl,

if you play from 3-6 to 10-20, you preflop standard is undoubtably too tight, IMO. but judging you by the words and the tone of your post, i suspect you are quite young and initially under-funded and also a little over-self-estimating, who might also overthink sometimes.

all that is just my opinion, and i could be wrong. plese don't take it the wrong way. what i am trying to say is that i sense some immature in you, and that could partially contribute to your not-so-great results.

from my experience, the players (me included) in your mindset has great potential to improve but are probably currently in a mental stage of poker slightly ahead of your skill set. you might think you are better than you actually are (i am guilty of it), becasue of past results or self-evaluation base on studying and such. this is not a big problem, until you constantly play in games where you are out-matched (unlikely for you, in the games you are currently playing).

i strongly recommend that you read your books more carefully and try to obsorb all you can. read the same books more time would help too. more important, share your thoughts, experiences, and ideas here, to get help from the forum, and to give help to the forum. try to contribute more and in the process of that, you will gain great knowledge and peace and comfort. you game will no doubt improve. and one day, you might be able to play in the same league as the big boys, like BK, shnieds, Dcifr, Andy, Tommy, El D, Mike l., Snakehead, Clark, etc.

oh, don't play like TSP, hehehe... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] (J/K, i actually don't know TSP at all, just thought it's fun to make fun of him, pls forgive, TSP).

I am currently in somewhat a struggle myself. I don't know what it is yet and I am still in search of my real enemy within. from the surface, i could just be running bad, but before i am sure of that, I bought a ton of books and started to spend more time here on 2+2 and TNT. I am confident things will turn around (if i had been playing winning player) or i will finally begin to play winning poker if all of last 3 years were just a huge fluke and i simply had been running good.

anyway, best of luck, and have fun at the tables!

- Kenny
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  #6  
Old 09-23-2005, 03:44 PM
nykenny nykenny is offline
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Default Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?

[ QUOTE ]
I love having 17/15 players at my table. It is like they almost get it... but they don't. Hyper-agros that pay off like a slot machine with comparitively weak hands. Be willing to go to more bets with these players. Also be willing to call down with 99 on a 1 or 2 broadway board. I think their problem is that they recognize the hands that are open-raises, but not those hands that are folds instead of 3bets. Just be aware of what that means.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't like 17/15 by far. i'd much rather play with 54/4.

not every close.
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  #7  
Old 09-23-2005, 04:35 PM
Emperor Emperor is offline
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Default Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?

MY stats are VERY similar 16/10/1.9 with river being a 1.2 (I miss a lot of value bets)

Honestly I just can't find more hands to play. I play Axs and small pp's from EP when the table is right. I'll open-raise with KQo from UTG, or after limpers. I don't cold call and 3bet with small pocket pairs as much as some people seem to do on here. I have GREAT game selection so I don't really get the opportunity to steal. My att to steal is 44% !!! From the HiJack I am raising all kinds of stuff. I'll isolate maniacs and 80/5/.5 guys with almost any JT or better if everyone else is tight. Have I just been cold decked for 100K hands?

Post flop - I miss value bets and I know this. I also miss turn bets and raises, because if someone semi-bluffs the flop then I am checking and calling A LOT. So I know I am missing some value.

I was a lil looser at 2/4 and was beating it for 2.75BB/100, but at 5/10 and 10/20 I am just scraping by. Everytime I sit in the 15 game I get run over.

Please help.
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  #8  
Old 09-23-2005, 04:40 PM
STLantny STLantny is offline
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Default Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?

This is a great question, I am a 15/9 player, but I also tried to transition, and went to the 19/17 player, and was one of the guys that cardshop was talking about (someone who almost gets it, but not quite.) What is the next step to get to become better.
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  #9  
Old 09-23-2005, 04:56 PM
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Default Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?

[ QUOTE ]
This is a great question, I am a 15/9 player, but I also tried to transition, and went to the 19/17 player, and was one of the guys that cardshop was talking about (someone who almost gets it, but not quite.) What is the next step to get to become better.

[/ QUOTE ]

to stlanty and emperor - don't try to improve your game by aiming for an "optimal" vp$ip. improve your game so that your vp$ip is better. that is just to say, don't try to create situations to increase the number, because this will invariably lead to mistakes (e.g., making bad coldcalls or EP limps w/ the justification that this must be the way to optimalize vpip). figure out which situations you are misplaying preflop, and the proper vp$ip will follow.

not saying that you guys are doing this, but just advising.

here are a couple situations that may be leading to your low vp$ip:

1) perhaps you don't steal from the cutoff and hijack enough. many players who are "almost there" oversteal from the button and understeal from the 2 seats right of the button. as you move up in limits, you will notice that you will be less able to steal from the button because there is a lot more opening from the cutoff and hijack.

2) you may not be defending your big blind to steal raises enough. remember that you are getting 3.5:1 on a button/LP steal, and there are some pretty crappy-looking hands with which you should be defending. (of course don't take this too far.)

what range of hands would you defend from the bb against a steal from an aggressive button?
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  #10  
Old 09-23-2005, 05:05 PM
Emperor Emperor is offline
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Default Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?

[ QUOTE ]


1) perhaps you don't steal from the cutoff and hijack enough. many players who are "almost there" oversteal from the button and understeal from the 2 seats right of the button. as you move up in limits, you will notice that you will be less able to steal from the button because there is a lot more opening from the cutoff and hijack.

2) you may not be defending your big blind to steal raises enough. remember that you are getting 3.5:1 on a button/LP steal, and there are some pretty crappy-looking hands with which you should be defending. (of course don't take this too far.)

what range of hands would you defend from the bb against a steal from an aggressive button?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. I am a stealing machine, I probably steal too much. 44%
2. I defend 50-60% vs a steal I think this might could go up some, but I suck so bad postflop HU that I laydown a lot of misses.
3. To go from 16 to 20 VPIP thats 4 hands every 10 orbits, of those hands almost all of them should be raising hands to bring preflop raise % up? So I would guess I am not raising my button often enough after limpers or blind stealers??
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