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  #1  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:40 PM
BeerMoney BeerMoney is offline
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Default What would you rather have?

In a HU confrontation of :

K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]) Vs. A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img])

This is a question axed in P.E's vol. 3. (I believe this is the door card in the 3 flush. But, I've been wrong before.) If anyone know's i'm wrong, please point out the correction.
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  #2  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:50 PM
TheSalche TheSalche is offline
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Default Re: What would you rather have?

This may be a personal preference, but ...

Seems to me like big pairs w/weak kickers, they are close to something like a 60/40 fav. over a smaller pair, and when they have an overcard kicker it gets even closer to even money.

Suited ace high 3-flush is somewhere around maybe 38/62 ish vs. a pair (assuming the ace is an overcard) ... it may actually be less of an underdog.

However, the suited ace has a lot more potential in terms of implied odds and improving on 4th street. It has 9 outs for a pair, plus 10 outs for a flush (assuming all cards are live). K5Kr only has 5 cards on 4th that will improve the hand.

Very interesting question.
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  #3  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:55 PM
lane mcbride lane mcbride is offline
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Default Re: What would you rather have?

aj7 hands down.

I believe they're about a coin flip.

further more, aj7 will play a lot better. There are a lot of cards that make you a decided favorite... if you don't catch well, you won't be tied on to the hand as much.

with split kings, you'll be seeing the river almost every time, with aj7 suited, you'll toss it if you don't improve a lot of the times... so even though it's 50/50 I think aj7 is more profitable
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Old 12-29-2005, 06:59 PM
TheSalche TheSalche is offline
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Default Re: What would you rather have?

Ah crap, I misread it, thought we were playing K5K or AJ7 vs. another hand.

I solidify my position on AJ7, may not be a coin flip, probably 40/60 or 45/55, but I like my implied odds there better still.

Another problem with the K5K is that if that hand makes trips, unless its the river, your opponent will know, while the ace is hidden from the kings.
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  #5  
Old 12-29-2005, 07:02 PM
lane mcbride lane mcbride is offline
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Default Re: What would you rather have?

40/60 is right. I was way off... however, I would probably rather have aj7 still.

also, if the ace is up... that's a big plus. cause you may get him to fold a better hand
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  #6  
Old 12-29-2005, 07:47 PM
BTirish BTirish is offline
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Default Re: What would you rather have?

I don't think there's a right answer. It's kind of a silly question... like, when I have the K-5-K do I know that I'm up against A-J-7s? If so, it's pretty easy to play the hand perfectly, and vice versa. In general, I'll take the 60-40 favorite and stick with K-5-K.

Part of what will make a difference is who the opponent is. The "typical" lines with these hands (as far as how I would play them) is that I'd almost always take the K-5-K hand to the river unless I were against a predictable opponent whose play assured me I was beaten, and I'd take the A-J-7s hand to 5th street and dump it if I hadn't picked up a pair or a 4-flush, pretty much regardless of my opponent. (By the way, is this the correct "general" line for the 3-flush hand heads up?)

Against a weak opponent, I wouldn't really care which hand I had. He's likely to pay me off as an underdog either way, and if he's tight and predictable then I'll know when to let either hand go.

Against a good opponent, I'd take the K-5-K and the 60-40 edge to start every time.
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  #7  
Old 12-29-2005, 09:08 PM
PoorLawyer PoorLawyer is offline
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Default Re: What would you rather have?

[ QUOTE ]
Ah crap, I misread it, thought we were playing K5K or AJ7 vs. another hand.

I solidify my position on AJ7, may not be a coin flip, probably 40/60 or 45/55, but I like my implied odds there better still.

Another problem with the K5K is that if that hand makes trips, unless its the river, your opponent will know, while the ace is hidden from the kings.

[/ QUOTE ]

the implied odds are nice, but you simply are going to win the hand more often with the kings. the pots you win with the kings will make up for the lesser times when the other guy catches an ace or gets the flush. Now, if the Ace is the doorcard, thats a different story because you can make more plays.
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  #8  
Old 12-29-2005, 09:12 PM
frappeboy frappeboy is offline
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Default Re: What would you rather have?

It's great to know the odds of how often 1 hand wins over another hand in a showdown, but the problem with AJ7s is that many times you're not gonna be able to see the final card. For instance if you brick 4th and 5th (which will happen quite often), you'll never get a chance to see the 6th street card. This is why I hate raising with such hands unless I have a chance to steal the antes.

And even the times you don't brick, you'll never be a huge favorite in the hand. For instance even if you catch a spade on 4th street you'll only be a slight favorite. If you spike an ace you'll be a pretty big favorite but the king won't be making a huge mistake calling you down. This is why all the books suggest you get in cheap with your 3 flushes.

Now don't get me wrong, there are times you should be playing this hand aggressively. If the ante is big, like the games Carlos plays, and a king raises, re-raising is a fine play. I just think in the tight ante structures that most players play you're better off just calling in this spot.

I would take the kings ANY day heads up and the 3 flush any day multi way.
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