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  #11  
Old 10-19-2005, 08:55 AM
Buzz Buzz is offline
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Default Re: Help with Ace 4 hands in Limit O8

Dave - The interactions involved between players in a poker game can be very complex.

There are some individual opponents whose playing style makes it difficult for me to cope. And there are combinations of players that can make a game difficult for me. They might not even be very good players, and it still might be difficult for me to cope.

And then there’s the luck factor. You can be dealt a premium starting hand, catch a nice flop and a favorable turn - only to have it all turn sour on the river. Even worse, you can have a nice hand beaten by a better hand, for example aces full beaten by quads. And you’re just going to take a bath when that happens.

It’s always safer to play more tightly. You can wait for premium starting hands, but you’re simply not going to be dealt many premium starting hands in a typical playing session. In a typical $3-$6 game, if you don’t play a hand for an hour, and if there are three rounds of the table in an hour, then it costs you $12 an hour to sit there folding hand after hand.

But someone will be winning all those pots - and usually without a premium starting hand.

And even when you do get dealt one, premium hands are not guaranteed to win.

So you open up your game a bit, playing hands that are less than premium.

But how much should you open up your game? That is the question.

And I don’t have an answer for you.

I don’t even have an exact answer for me. For me, how much to open up my game seems to depend on my opponents. The answer is different (and never clear) for each particular group of opponents.

I think whether or not you should play a hand depends on various factors, including how many opponents were dealt hands, how many opponents have not yet folded, how your opponents probably feel about you and the other players who are active in the hand, how your opponents are playing and your position.

That written, I wanted to know how all hands fared relative to each other. To find that out, I ran simulations. How a hand actually fares in a real game depends on how your opponents are playing (tight/loose, aggressive/passive, tenacious/”weak, ” etc.). It’s even more complex than that because those and other factors are different for each betting round and are interactive, depending on who exactly is involved in a hand.

At any rate, to get an idea of how various hands fare, I ran the sims against eight non-folding random hands. 10,000 times each. As you might expect, double-suited-AA23 fared the best. (I’m not interested in the worst. Probably 2222 would be the worst. Well... O.K. I ran all the hands with quads, just to see, and they were the worst.)

I haven’t simulated all the distinctly different A4XY hands, just enough to give me a pretty good idea of how good they are relative to various other starting hands in a nine player game. For example, for A45K, I ran a lot of the distinctly different possibilities (but not all of them):

A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (I label that as A45Kn)

A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (I label that as A45Kd)

A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (I label that as A45Ks)

A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (I label that as A45Ks”’)

A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (I label that as A45Ks””)

A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (I label that as A45Ks-)

A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (I label that as A45Ks-”’)

A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (I label that as A45Ks=)

A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (I label that as A45Kd=)

That’s not all the distinctly different possibilities for A45K, just all the sims I ran for the A45K family of hands. I at least ran the “n”, “s”, and “d” distinctly different categories for each of the possible families of A4XY hands.

There’s no sharp distinction in the simulations between some starting hands I’m calling playable and some hands I’m calling marginal. The same is true for the dividing line between what i’m calling marginal starting hands and what I’m calling trash hands - no sharp distinction. If I redid any of the sims, I’d expect the numbers to turn out a bit differently, possibly shifting from one category to another. It’s a matter of arbitrarily drawing the line somewhere.

I have somewhat arbitraily chosen to label
hands of 1251 and below as “trash,”
hands in the 1252-1399 range as “marginal,” and
hands of 1400 and above as “playable.”

My thinking is for the most part, I should only play the marginal hands on the button or small blind in an unraised pot. You hate to limp with one of these and then have the pot raised behind you. But if a targeted opponent (a fish) has entered or is expected to enter the action, I might relax my standards so as to be involved in the same hand as the fish. You can’t win money from somebody who is throwing it away if you have already folded. Similarly, if everybody actively involved is tough, I might choose not to play a particular hand I’ve deemed “playable.”

If X and Y can be anything, then the very best A4XY hand is AA24d (ace, ace, deuce, four, double suited) - and the very worst A4XY hand is A444n.
hand.....high.....low.....scoop.....total
AA24d.....405.....1364.....1279.....3048 .....(double suited)
<font color="red">A444n.....97.....729.....163.....989 .....(rainbow) </font>

You’re obviously going to be playing AA24d and folding A444n. But what about the hands in between these two extremes?

Well... based mainly on simulations,

A4XY Hands in a nine player game.

• All AA4X hands are playable, double-suited, suited, or rainbow.
• All A24X hands are playable, double-suited, suited, or rainbow.
• All A34X hands are playable, double-suited, suited, or rainbow.

But you probably already knew that. What about hands where the A4 two-card combo is not in association with a AA, A2, or A3 two-card combo?

<font color="red">• A444 hands, A448n, and A449n are trash.</font>
• All other A44X hands are playable, double-suited, suited, or rainbow.
• All A45X hands are playable, double-suited, suited, or rainbow, <font color="green">except A45Mn. key: “M” means middle card (6, 7, 8, 9), “n” means non-suited (rainbow).
• All A45Mn hands are marginal.
• A4 + middle cards suited hands are marginal. </font>
<font color="red">• A4 + middle cards rainbows are trash.</font>
<font color="green">• A4 + one middle card + one high card rainbow is marginal. </font>
• All other A4XY hands are playable. (Mostly, A4XY hands are very playable).

I want to emphasize the above relative generalizations as to “playable,” “marginal,” and “trash” are for my own usage.

I’ll post the simulation data on which I based the above generalizations in a supplemental post.

Buzz
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  #12  
Old 10-19-2005, 09:00 AM
Buzz Buzz is offline
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Default Supplemental simutation data, A4XY hands, 9 handed

A4XY simulation data, 9 handed non-folding, 10000 runs each

For my own usage, I have color coded playable (black), marginal (green), and trash hands (red).

The following is from my nine-handed non-folding main data file (10000 runs each):

hand.....high.....low.....scoop.....total
<font color=" red">A444s.....178.....673.....400.....1251 .....(A4 of same suit) </font>
<font color="red">A444n.......97.....729.....163.....989 .....(rainbow) </font>
A445d.....335.....763.....701.....1799 .....(double suited)
A445s.....312.....761.....593.....1666 .....(A4 of same suit)
A445n.....212.....830.....402.....1444 .....(rainbow)
A446d.....373.....694.....584.....1651 .....(double suited)
A446s.....332.....692.....551.....1575 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A446n.....258.....753.....285.....12 96 .....(rainbow) </font>
A447d.....373.....561.....559.....1493 .....(double suited)
A447s.....325.....567.....528.....1420 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color=" red">A447n.....259.....667.....290.....1216 .....(rainbow) </font>
A448d.....372.....540.....599.....1511 .....(double suited)
A448s.....338.....580.....504.....1422 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="red">A448n.....231.....578.....234.....1043 .....(rainbow) </font>
A449d.....321.....609.....557.....1487 .....(double suited)
A449s.....292.....614.....532.....1438 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="red">A449n.....199.....673.....270.....1142 .....(rainbow) </font>
A44Td.....392.....600.....623.....1615 .....(double suited)
A44Ts.....331.....629.....607.....1567 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color=" red">A44Tn.....263.....643.....315.....1221 .....(rainbow) </font>
A44Jd.....405.....599.....733.....1737 .....(double suited)
A44Js.....345.....630.....588.....1563 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A44Jn.....244.....651.....361.....12 56 .....(rainbow) </font>
A44Qd.....434.....645.....702.....1781 .....(double suited)
A44Qs.....343.....603.....547.....1493 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A44Qn.....265.....657.....376.....12 98 .....(rainbow) </font>
A44Kd.....496.....604.....772.....1872 .....(double suited)
A44Ks.....367.....606.....665.....1638 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A44Kn.....261.....650.....387.....12 98 .....(rainbow) </font>
A455d.....343.....760.....687.....1790 .....(double suited)
A455s.....338.....775.....657.....1770 .....(A4 of same suit)
A455n.....234.....811.....409.....1454 .....(rainbow)
A456d.....413.....769.....635.....1817 .....(double suited)
A456s.....379.....792.....545.....1716 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A456n.....281.....824.....294.....13 99 .....(rainbow) </font>
A457d.....389.....711.....658.....1758 .....(double suited)
A457s.....383.....713.....585.....1681 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A457n.....280.....763.....322.....13 65 .....(rainbow) </font>
A458d.....375.....715.....613.....1703 .....(double suited)
A458s.....354.....718.....537.....1609 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A458n.....238.....776.....323.....13 37 .....(rainbow) </font>
A459d.....350.....734.....633.....1717 .....(double suited)
A459s.....324.....765.....566.....1655 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A459n.....194.....790.....300.....12 84 .....(rainbow) </font>
A45Td.....371.....770.....761.....1902 .....(double suited)
A45Ts.....336.....775.....629.....1740 .....(A4 of same suit)
A45Tn.....223.....840.....418.....1481 .....(rainbow)
A45Jd.....374.....750.....748.....1872 .....(double suited)
A45Js.....324.....765.....660.....1749 .....(A4 of same suit)
A45Jn.....227.....805.....417.....1449 .....(rainbow)
A45Qd.....421.....739.....803.....1963 .....(double suited)
A45Qs.....341.....793.....680.....1814 .....(A4 of same suit)
A45Qn.....230.....800.....454.....1484 .....(rainbow)
A45Kd.....453.....726.....836.....2015 .....(double suited)
A45Ks.....334.....806.....671.....1811 .....(A4 of same suit)
A45Ks”’....297.....783.....643.....1723 .....(A45 of same suit)
A45Ks-....354.....778.....564.....1696 .....(K4 of same suit)
A45Ks””...290.....778.....544.....1612 .....(A45K of same suit)
A45Ks=...276.....809.....496.....1581 .....(45 of same suit)
A45Ks-”’..326.....778.....581.....1685 .....(K45 of same suit)
A45Kn.....242.....809.....400.....1451 .....(rainbow)
A466d.....401.....595.....624.....1620 .....(double suited)
A466s.....362.....617.....568.....1547 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A466n.....271.....658.....337.....12 66 .....(rainbow) </font>
A467d.....435.....599.....538.....1572 .....(double suited)
A467s.....413.....605.....487.....1505 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="red">A467n.....300.....649.....237.....1186 .....(rainbow) </font>
A468d.....412.....591.....566.....1569 .....(double suited)
A468s.....387.....603.....432.....1422 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="red">A468n.....272.....658.....208.....1138 .....(rainbow) </font>
A469d.....359.....645.....565.....1569 .....(double suited)
A469s.....358.....660.....474.....1492 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="red">A469n.....224.....661.....253.....1138 .....(rainbow) </font>
A46Td.....437.....610.....714.....1761 .....(double suited)
A46Ts.....362.....622.....574.....1558 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A46Tn.....237.....689.....338.....12 64 .....(rainbow) </font>
A46Jd.....413.....653.....618.....1684 .....(double suited)
A46Js.....357.....663.....567.....1587 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color=" red">A46Jn.....252.....680.....313.....1245 .....(rainbow) </font>
A46Qd.....452.....631.....441.....1524 .....(double suited)
A46Qs.....364.....646.....566.....1576 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A46Qn.....236.....692.....355.....12 83 .....(rainbow) </font>
A46Kd.....495.....619.....738.....1852 .....(double suited)
A46Ks.....368.....674.....609.....1651 .....(A4 of same suit)
A46Kn.....256.....687.....358.....1301 .....(rainbow)
A477d.....400.....464.....615.....1479 .....(double suited)
<font color="green">A477s.....381.....448.....556.....13 85 .....(A4 of same suit) </font>
<font color="red">A477n.....285.....495.....322.....1102 .....(rainbow) </font>
A478d.....451.....470.....483.....1404 .....(double suited)
A478s.....394.....502.....432.....1328 .....(A4 of same suit) </font>
<font color="red">A478n.....296.....526.....227.....1049 .....(rainbow) </font>
A479d.....404.....509.....541.....1454 .....(double suited)
A479s.....381.....527.....482.....1390 .....(A4 of same suit) </font>
<font color="red">A479n.....256.....553.....260.....1069 .....(rainbow) </font>
A47Td.....442.....534.....647.....1623 .....(double suited)
A47Ts.....391.....502.....562.....1455 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color=" red">A47Tn.....283.....572.....351.....1206 .....(rainbow) </font>
A47Jd.....427.....539.....653.....1619 .....(double suited)
A47Js.....393.....499.....530.....1422 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color=" red">A47Jn.....269.....588.....362.....1219 .....(rainbow) </font>
A47Qd.....474.....547.....670.....1691 .....(double suited)
A47Qs.....361.....554.....583.....1498 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="red">A47Qn.....240.....549.....329.....1118 .....(rainbow) </font>
A47Kd.....508.....537.....702.....1747 .....(double suited)
A47Ks.....411.....538.....582.....1531 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="red">A47Kn.....253.....575.....358.....1186 .....(rainbow) </font>
A488d.....408.....435.....586.....1429 .....(double suited)
<font color="green">A488s.....382.....431.....506.....13 19 .....(A4 of same suit) </font>
<font color="red">A488n.....254.....468.....323.....1043 .....(rainbow) </font>
A489d.....400.....504.....602.....1506 .....(double suited)
<font color="green">A489s.....363.....492.....507.....13 62 .....(A4 of same suit) </font>
<font color="red">A489n.....248.....535.....274.....1057 .....(rainbow) </font>
A48Td.....449.....500.....669.....1618 .....(double suited)
A48Ts.....371.....519.....614.....1504 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="red">A48Tn.....292.....540.....343.....1175 .....(rainbow) </font>
A48Jd.....447.....478.....713.....1638 .....(double suited)
A48Js.....360.....488.....579.....1427 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="red">A48Jn.....270.....541.....377.....1188 .....(rainbow) </font>
A48Qd.....455.....508.....667.....1630 .....(double suited)
A48Qs.....359.....509.....589.....1457 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="red">A48Qn.....257.....542.....351.....1150 .....(rainbow) </font>
A48Kd.....482.....501.....688.....1671 .....(double suited)
A48Ks.....349.....493.....584.....1426 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="red">A48Kn.....240.....551.....362.....1153 .....(rainbow) </font>
A499d.....317.....523.....743.....1583 .....(double suited)
A499s.....252.....527.....742.....1521 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A499n.....149.....577.....532.....12 58 .....(rainbow) </font>
A49Td.....445.....554.....668.....1667 .....(double suited)
A49Ts.....393.....542.....651.....1586 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A49Tn.....273.....587.....414.....12 74 .....(rainbow) </font>
A49Jd.....432.....520.....725.....1677 .....(double suited)
<font color="red">A49Jn.....233.....555.....352.....1140 .....(rainbow) </font>
A49Qd.....419.....529.....727.....1675 .....(double suited)
A49Qs.....327.....529.....606.....1462 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="red">A49Qn.....218.....594.....395.....1207 .....(rainbow) </font>
A49Kd.....449.....547.....742.....1738 .....(double suited)
A49Ks.....319.....538.....628.....1485 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="red">A49Kn.....204.....565.....367.....1136 .....(rainbow) </font>
A4TTd.....384.....525.....897.....1806 .....(double suited)
A4TTs.....291.....521.....886.....1698 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A4TTn.....186.....560.....639.....13 85 .....(rainbow) </font>
A4TJd.....502.....532.....818.....1852 .....(double suited)
A4TJs.....420.....544.....707.....1671 .....(A4 of same suit)
A4TJn.....310.....576.....470.....1356 .....(rainbow) </font>
A4TQd.....490.....525.....837.....1852 .....(double suited)
A4TQs.....411.....540.....733.....1684 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A4TQn.....264.....578.....507.....13 49 .....(rainbow) </font>
A4TKd.....521.....527.....882.....1930 .....(double suited)
A4TKs.....384.....513.....762.....1659 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A4TKn.....273.....588.....505.....13 66 .....(rainbow) </font>
A4JJd.....409.....534.....942.....1885 .....(double suited)
A4JJs.....326.....528.....934.....1788 .....(A4 of same suit)
A4JJn.....190.....545.....748.....1483 .....(rainbow)
A4JQd.....494.....512.....817.....1823 .....(double suited)
A4JQs.....389.....542.....748.....1679 .....(A4 of same suit)
A4JQn.....311.....578.....513.....1402 .....(rainbow)
A4JKd.....490.....528.....815.....1833 .....(double suited)
A4JKs.....380.....528.....736.....1644 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A4JKn.....265.....595.....512.....13 72 .....(rainbow) </font>
A4QQd.....432.....521.....1027.....1980 .....(double suited)
A4QQs.....336.....531.....987.....1854 .....(A4 of same suit)
A4QQn.....207.....574.....766.....1547 .....(rainbow) </font>
A4QKd.....519.....534.....837.....1890 .....(double suited)
A4QKs.....389.....557.....741.....1687 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A4QKn.....241.....549.....533.....13 23 .....(rainbow) </font>
A4KKd.....463.....493.....1092.....2048 .....(double suited)
A4KKs.....354.....525.....1043.....1922 .....(A4 of same suit)
A4KKn.....239.....559.....893.....1691 .....(rainbow)

To put things into better perspective, here are the sims results for a few starting hands you’d probably want to play:
hand.....high.....low.....scoop.....total
A234n.....127.....1918.....351.....2396 .....(rainbow)
<font color="green">A278n.....257.....866.....240.....13 63 .....(rainbow) </font>
<font color="green">A288n.....194.....765.....358.....13 17 .....(rainbow) </font>
AJQKd.....662.....0.....876.....1538 .....(double suited)
<font color="red">AJQKs.....468.....0.....775.....1243 .....(AJ of same suit) </font>
<font color="red">AJQKn.....342.....0.....758.....1100 .....(rainbow) </font>
TJQKd.....650.....0.....878.....1528 .....(double suited)
<font color="green">TJQKs.....550.....0.....788.....1338 .....(KT of same suit) </font>
<font color="red">TJQKn.....409.....0.....721.....1131 .....(rainbow) </font>
QQKKd.....681.....0.....1182.....1863 .....(double suited)
QQKKs.....555.....0.....1119.....1674 .....( KQ single suited)
QQKKn.....407.....0.....1125.....1532 .....(rainbow)

Buzz
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  #13  
Old 10-19-2005, 12:22 PM
titans01 titans01 is offline
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Default Re: Supplemental simutation data, A4XY hands, 9 handed

Nice report. I'm curious as to what software you use to run this. Also does someone have the data for all hands containing an ace and a wheel card?
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  #14  
Old 10-19-2005, 03:04 PM
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Default Re: Help with Ace 4 hands in Limit O8

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I need 2 other things to make A4 playable in limit, a deuce and a trey.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you are a pussy. You might want to consult with the fella that puts the O8poker.com website together. His advice on A-4 might make you some money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Copy and pasting what other people write, then putting it on your own website, does not make it "your advice".

[/ QUOTE ]

Why care whose advice it is? Good advice is good advice. My interest is in becoming a better Omaha player and making more money. Even your advice is good advice, on occasion. But as Professor Buzz shows above, saying that the only good A-4 is A-4-3-2 is ridiculous.
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  #15  
Old 10-19-2005, 03:14 PM
Ribbo Ribbo is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2005
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Posts: 213
Default Re: Help with Ace 4 hands in Limit O8

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I need 2 other things to make A4 playable in limit, a deuce and a trey.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you are a pussy. You might want to consult with the fella that puts the O8poker.com website together. His advice on A-4 might make you some money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Copy and pasting what other people write, then putting it on your own website, does not make it "your advice".

[/ QUOTE ]

Why care whose advice it is? Good advice is good advice. My interest is in becoming a better Omaha player and making more money. Even your advice is good advice, on occasion. But as Professor Buzz shows above, saying that the only good A-4 is A-4-3-2 is ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course it's ridiculous, It's pretty blatantly obvious I wasn't being serious when I said it. You need to get your humour chip installed in your robotic brain.
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  #16  
Old 10-19-2005, 03:58 PM
Buzz Buzz is offline
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Posts: 598
Default Re: Supplemental simutation data, A4XY hands, 9 handed

[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious as to what software you use to run this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Titans01 - I used Wilson's Turbo Omaha High-Low for Windows, Version 2. Copyright 1997-99 Wilson Software.

[ QUOTE ]
Also does someone have the data for all hands containing an ace and a wheel card?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably not.

The keyword is "all." If there are four different ranks of cards in the hand (no pairs, trips, or quads), then I think there are fifteen uniquely different ways for the hand to be suited. Let's see:

cdhs....("n" or "rainbow")
ccdh....
cdch....
cdhc....{"s" or single suited}
dcch....
dchc....
dhcc....
cccd....
ccdc....
cdcc....
dccc....
ccdd....
cdcd....
cddc....{"d" or double suited}
cccc....

I think that's all of them, but maybe I'm missing some. It would be pretty easy for me to not count something.

Let's check. There are 4*4*4*4 = 256 ways to choose four different ranks of cards. Let's check the list to see if the implied possibilities total 256.

cdhs....24
ccdh....24
cdch....24
cdhc....24
dcch....24
dchc....24
dhcc....24
cccd....12
ccdc....12
cdcc....12
dccc....12
ccdd....12
cdcd....12
cddc....12
cccc....4

24*7+12*7+4 = 168+84+4 = 256. Yep, looks like I got them all this time.

I bought a couple of different books with simulation tabulations in an attempt to save myself the time of running the sims myself. Bill Boston's book was one of the books I bought. But his book, though useful, didn't quite have what I wanted.

At any rate, considering all the possibilities, I doubt that anyone has the simulation data for all the uniquely different hands containing an ace and a wheel card.

But having them all is not necessary to know which ones to play. For example, if A23K-rainbow is playable, then all the suited and double suited varieties of A23K must also be playable.

Buzz
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  #17  
Old 10-19-2005, 05:29 PM
gergery gergery is offline
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Posts: 719
Default Re: Supplemental simutation data, A4XY hands, 9 handed

These are great sims, and very helpful.

The only caution I’d toss out is that these are no-fold-em sims.

In actual play, your results will be significantly worse, because
1) you will be forced to fold on the flop many of those hands that would have improved on the turn and river.
2) You will not have 8 other people sticking in all that money thru to the river. In real life many of the crappiest hands will get folded, not played, and with 8 others in you are losing equity to the 1-3 others who have A2/A3, but are gaining a lot of equity from the fish with 389K-type hands. So your good results rely heavily on players 5-8 coming in – players who in real life may not be there.

Let me know if I’ve misunderstood anything on the methodology here Buzz.

That said, these make a wider subset of A4 hands look very playable (my read indicates the two most important factors as being 1) suited and 2) no middle cards)

--greg
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  #18  
Old 10-19-2005, 06:57 PM
sy_or_bust sy_or_bust is offline
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Default Re: Help with Ace 4 hands in Limit O8

I'm posting blind, but I can say that you certainly play too many hands, and playing too many A4 hands is a leak. It is easy to run hot over a few thousand hands and over/under estimate the strength of many hands, which may have happened to you. Don't play these hands unless you're coming into a bit pot in LP with some other possibilities - usually some combo of flush and J-high+ straight possibilities. Obviously you should be more inclined to play against weak limpers and less against solid opponents.
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  #19  
Old 10-19-2005, 07:03 PM
Wintermute Wintermute is offline
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Default Re: Supplemental simutation data, A4XY hands, 9 handed

[ QUOTE ]
A4XY simulation data, 9 handed non-folding, 10000 runs each

For my own usage, I have color coded playable (black), marginal (green), and trash hands (red).

The following is from my nine-handed non-folding main data file (10000 runs each):

hand.....high.....low.....scoop.....total
<font color=" red">A444s.....178.....673.....400.....1251 .....(A4 of same suit) </font>
<font color="red">A444n.......97.....729.....163.....989 .....(rainbow) </font>
A445d.....335.....763.....701.....1799 .....(double suited)
A445s.....312.....761.....593.....1666 .....(A4 of same suit)
A445n.....212.....830.....402.....1444 .....(rainbow)
A446d.....373.....694.....584.....1651 .....(double suited)
A446s.....332.....692.....551.....1575 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A446n.....258.....753.....285.....12 96 .....(rainbow) </font>
A447d.....373.....561.....559.....1493 .....(double suited)
A447s.....325.....567.....528.....1420 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color=" red">A447n.....259.....667.....290.....1216 .....(rainbow) </font>
A448d.....372.....540.....599.....1511 .....(double suited)
A448s.....338.....580.....504.....1422 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="red">A448n.....231.....578.....234.....1043 .....(rainbow) </font>
A449d.....321.....609.....557.....1487 .....(double suited)
A449s.....292.....614.....532.....1438 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="red">A449n.....199.....673.....270.....1142 .....(rainbow) </font>
A44Td.....392.....600.....623.....1615 .....(double suited)
A44Ts.....331.....629.....607.....1567 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color=" red">A44Tn.....263.....643.....315.....1221 .....(rainbow) </font>
A44Jd.....405.....599.....733.....1737 .....(double suited)
A44Js.....345.....630.....588.....1563 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A44Jn.....244.....651.....361.....12 56 .....(rainbow) </font>
A44Qd.....434.....645.....702.....1781 .....(double suited)
A44Qs.....343.....603.....547.....1493 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A44Qn.....265.....657.....376.....12 98 .....(rainbow) </font>
A44Kd.....496.....604.....772.....1872 .....(double suited)
A44Ks.....367.....606.....665.....1638 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A44Kn.....261.....650.....387.....12 98 .....(rainbow) </font>
A455d.....343.....760.....687.....1790 .....(double suited)
A455s.....338.....775.....657.....1770 .....(A4 of same suit)
A455n.....234.....811.....409.....1454 .....(rainbow)
A456d.....413.....769.....635.....1817 .....(double suited)
A456s.....379.....792.....545.....1716 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A456n.....281.....824.....294.....13 99 .....(rainbow) </font>
A457d.....389.....711.....658.....1758 .....(double suited)
A457s.....383.....713.....585.....1681 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A457n.....280.....763.....322.....13 65 .....(rainbow) </font>
A458d.....375.....715.....613.....1703 .....(double suited)
A458s.....354.....718.....537.....1609 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A458n.....238.....776.....323.....13 37 .....(rainbow) </font>
A459d.....350.....734.....633.....1717 .....(double suited)
A459s.....324.....765.....566.....1655 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A459n.....194.....790.....300.....12 84 .....(rainbow) </font>
A45Td.....371.....770.....761.....1902 .....(double suited)
A45Ts.....336.....775.....629.....1740 .....(A4 of same suit)
A45Tn.....223.....840.....418.....1481 .....(rainbow)
A45Jd.....374.....750.....748.....1872 .....(double suited)
A45Js.....324.....765.....660.....1749 .....(A4 of same suit)
A45Jn.....227.....805.....417.....1449 .....(rainbow)
A45Qd.....421.....739.....803.....1963 .....(double suited)
A45Qs.....341.....793.....680.....1814 .....(A4 of same suit)
A45Qn.....230.....800.....454.....1484 .....(rainbow)
A45Kd.....453.....726.....836.....2015 .....(double suited)
A45Ks.....334.....806.....671.....1811 .....(A4 of same suit)
A45Ks”’....297.....783.....643.....1723 .....(A45 of same suit)
A45Ks-....354.....778.....564.....1696 .....(K4 of same suit)
A45Ks””...290.....778.....544.....1612 .....(A45K of same suit)
A45Ks=...276.....809.....496.....1581 .....(45 of same suit)
A45Ks-”’..326.....778.....581.....1685 .....(K45 of same suit)
A45Kn.....242.....809.....400.....1451 .....(rainbow)
A466d.....401.....595.....624.....1620 .....(double suited)
A466s.....362.....617.....568.....1547 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A466n.....271.....658.....337.....12 66 .....(rainbow) </font>
A467d.....435.....599.....538.....1572 .....(double suited)
A467s.....413.....605.....487.....1505 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="red">A467n.....300.....649.....237.....1186 .....(rainbow) </font>
A468d.....412.....591.....566.....1569 .....(double suited)
A468s.....387.....603.....432.....1422 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="red">A468n.....272.....658.....208.....1138 .....(rainbow) </font>
A469d.....359.....645.....565.....1569 .....(double suited)
A469s.....358.....660.....474.....1492 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="red">A469n.....224.....661.....253.....1138 .....(rainbow) </font>
A46Td.....437.....610.....714.....1761 .....(double suited)
A46Ts.....362.....622.....574.....1558 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A46Tn.....237.....689.....338.....12 64 .....(rainbow) </font>
A46Jd.....413.....653.....618.....1684 .....(double suited)
A46Js.....357.....663.....567.....1587 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color=" red">A46Jn.....252.....680.....313.....1245 .....(rainbow) </font>
A46Qd.....452.....631.....441.....1524 .....(double suited)
A46Qs.....364.....646.....566.....1576 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A46Qn.....236.....692.....355.....12 83 .....(rainbow) </font>
A46Kd.....495.....619.....738.....1852 .....(double suited)
A46Ks.....368.....674.....609.....1651 .....(A4 of same suit)
A46Kn.....256.....687.....358.....1301 .....(rainbow)
A477d.....400.....464.....615.....1479 .....(double suited)
<font color="green">A477s.....381.....448.....556.....13 85 .....(A4 of same suit) </font>
<font color="red">A477n.....285.....495.....322.....1102 .....(rainbow) </font>
A478d.....451.....470.....483.....1404 .....(double suited)
A478s.....394.....502.....432.....1328 .....(A4 of same suit) </font>
<font color="red">A478n.....296.....526.....227.....1049 .....(rainbow) </font>
A479d.....404.....509.....541.....1454 .....(double suited)
A479s.....381.....527.....482.....1390 .....(A4 of same suit) </font>
<font color="red">A479n.....256.....553.....260.....1069 .....(rainbow) </font>
A47Td.....442.....534.....647.....1623 .....(double suited)
A47Ts.....391.....502.....562.....1455 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color=" red">A47Tn.....283.....572.....351.....1206 .....(rainbow) </font>
A47Jd.....427.....539.....653.....1619 .....(double suited)
A47Js.....393.....499.....530.....1422 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color=" red">A47Jn.....269.....588.....362.....1219 .....(rainbow) </font>
A47Qd.....474.....547.....670.....1691 .....(double suited)
A47Qs.....361.....554.....583.....1498 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="red">A47Qn.....240.....549.....329.....1118 .....(rainbow) </font>
A47Kd.....508.....537.....702.....1747 .....(double suited)
A47Ks.....411.....538.....582.....1531 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="red">A47Kn.....253.....575.....358.....1186 .....(rainbow) </font>
A488d.....408.....435.....586.....1429 .....(double suited)
<font color="green">A488s.....382.....431.....506.....13 19 .....(A4 of same suit) </font>
<font color="red">A488n.....254.....468.....323.....1043 .....(rainbow) </font>
A489d.....400.....504.....602.....1506 .....(double suited)
<font color="green">A489s.....363.....492.....507.....13 62 .....(A4 of same suit) </font>
<font color="red">A489n.....248.....535.....274.....1057 .....(rainbow) </font>
A48Td.....449.....500.....669.....1618 .....(double suited)
A48Ts.....371.....519.....614.....1504 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="red">A48Tn.....292.....540.....343.....1175 .....(rainbow) </font>
A48Jd.....447.....478.....713.....1638 .....(double suited)
A48Js.....360.....488.....579.....1427 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="red">A48Jn.....270.....541.....377.....1188 .....(rainbow) </font>
A48Qd.....455.....508.....667.....1630 .....(double suited)
A48Qs.....359.....509.....589.....1457 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="red">A48Qn.....257.....542.....351.....1150 .....(rainbow) </font>
A48Kd.....482.....501.....688.....1671 .....(double suited)
A48Ks.....349.....493.....584.....1426 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="red">A48Kn.....240.....551.....362.....1153 .....(rainbow) </font>
A499d.....317.....523.....743.....1583 .....(double suited)
A499s.....252.....527.....742.....1521 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A499n.....149.....577.....532.....12 58 .....(rainbow) </font>
A49Td.....445.....554.....668.....1667 .....(double suited)
A49Ts.....393.....542.....651.....1586 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A49Tn.....273.....587.....414.....12 74 .....(rainbow) </font>
A49Jd.....432.....520.....725.....1677 .....(double suited)
<font color="red">A49Jn.....233.....555.....352.....1140 .....(rainbow) </font>
A49Qd.....419.....529.....727.....1675 .....(double suited)
A49Qs.....327.....529.....606.....1462 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="red">A49Qn.....218.....594.....395.....1207 .....(rainbow) </font>
A49Kd.....449.....547.....742.....1738 .....(double suited)
A49Ks.....319.....538.....628.....1485 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="red">A49Kn.....204.....565.....367.....1136 .....(rainbow) </font>
A4TTd.....384.....525.....897.....1806 .....(double suited)
A4TTs.....291.....521.....886.....1698 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A4TTn.....186.....560.....639.....13 85 .....(rainbow) </font>
A4TJd.....502.....532.....818.....1852 .....(double suited)
A4TJs.....420.....544.....707.....1671 .....(A4 of same suit)
A4TJn.....310.....576.....470.....1356 .....(rainbow) </font>
A4TQd.....490.....525.....837.....1852 .....(double suited)
A4TQs.....411.....540.....733.....1684 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A4TQn.....264.....578.....507.....13 49 .....(rainbow) </font>
A4TKd.....521.....527.....882.....1930 .....(double suited)
A4TKs.....384.....513.....762.....1659 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A4TKn.....273.....588.....505.....13 66 .....(rainbow) </font>
A4JJd.....409.....534.....942.....1885 .....(double suited)
A4JJs.....326.....528.....934.....1788 .....(A4 of same suit)
A4JJn.....190.....545.....748.....1483 .....(rainbow)
A4JQd.....494.....512.....817.....1823 .....(double suited)
A4JQs.....389.....542.....748.....1679 .....(A4 of same suit)
A4JQn.....311.....578.....513.....1402 .....(rainbow)
A4JKd.....490.....528.....815.....1833 .....(double suited)
A4JKs.....380.....528.....736.....1644 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A4JKn.....265.....595.....512.....13 72 .....(rainbow) </font>
A4QQd.....432.....521.....1027.....1980 .....(double suited)
A4QQs.....336.....531.....987.....1854 .....(A4 of same suit)
A4QQn.....207.....574.....766.....1547 .....(rainbow) </font>
A4QKd.....519.....534.....837.....1890 .....(double suited)
A4QKs.....389.....557.....741.....1687 .....(A4 of same suit)
<font color="green">A4QKn.....241.....549.....533.....13 23 .....(rainbow) </font>
A4KKd.....463.....493.....1092.....2048 .....(double suited)
A4KKs.....354.....525.....1043.....1922 .....(A4 of same suit)
A4KKn.....239.....559.....893.....1691 .....(rainbow)

To put things into better perspective, here are the sims results for a few starting hands you’d probably want to play:
hand.....high.....low.....scoop.....total
A234n.....127.....1918.....351.....2396 .....(rainbow)
<font color="green">A278n.....257.....866.....240.....13 63 .....(rainbow) </font>
<font color="green">A288n.....194.....765.....358.....13 17 .....(rainbow) </font>
AJQKd.....662.....0.....876.....1538 .....(double suited)
<font color="red">AJQKs.....468.....0.....775.....1243 .....(AJ of same suit) </font>
<font color="red">AJQKn.....342.....0.....758.....1100 .....(rainbow) </font>
TJQKd.....650.....0.....878.....1528 .....(double suited)
<font color="green">TJQKs.....550.....0.....788.....1338 .....(KT of same suit) </font>
<font color="red">TJQKn.....409.....0.....721.....1131 .....(rainbow) </font>
QQKKd.....681.....0.....1182.....1863 .....(double suited)
QQKKs.....555.....0.....1119.....1674 .....( KQ single suited)
QQKKn.....407.....0.....1125.....1532 .....(rainbow)

Buzz

[/ QUOTE ]



Goddam, Buzz. Can you include a 25-word executive summary at the top of your posts?
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  #20  
Old 10-19-2005, 07:49 PM
DyessMan89 DyessMan89 is offline
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Posts: 308
Default Re: Supplemental simutation data, A4XY hands, 9 handed

Buzz is a god. Nice work Buzz. Interesting stuff.
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