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#11
12-26-2005, 06:08 PM
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Re: PC-ness has replaced logic & reasoning.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] "Today, I find myself wondering “what is even a little racist about that comment?" To me it shows what is likely a lack of understanding about "race" in general, and a lot of the reasons why blacks are generally superior athletes than white. All black people don't live in "the jungle", and very large populations have been isolated from that environment for as long as white europeans have been. The lumping of all blacks together and attributing them all the same charicteristics is racist- or at least is the basis of racism for a fair number of people. [/ QUOTE ] I know all black people don’t live in the jungle. I personally don’t know *any* who live in the jungle. But *ancestrally* they are from Africa. It is an entirely different environment there than Europe for example. It takes a different set of skills to survive there, historically. I’m sure that over time, as the world continues to be more global, (hundreds or thousands of generations of blacks living here for example) it will make a difference. Remember, blacks have only lived in the US for a few hundred years. That is hardly enough time to see a huge change in evolution or adaptation. You do already see some change however... Why do you think Kenyan’s always win the big marathons? So, anyway... Please give me an alternate explanation as to why blacks are typically more athletic than whites. Or do you think it's racist to even acknowledge that? If so... why? All you have to do is look at results of athletic contests and compare the percentages. [/ QUOTE ] The problem begins with lumping ALL black people into the same catagory- ie they all decended from a group living in the jungle, wheras white people decended from northern climates in europe. There are plenty of groups of black people who have spent as much or more time outside of the original "jungle" environment as whites have. What i am trying to say is that distinguishing groups of people based upon skin color is a poor way to make generilizations becuase there is so much variablity within those "groups" themselves, and certain sections will have more in commen with people outside of their group than with other subsets within thier own group. Saying "black people are superior atheletes than whites" is racist as its a broad overgenerilization whitout any specific merit. To say that certain groups of people have a genetic predispostion to excell in certain areas because of the environment that thier ancestors were exposed to is a perfectly legitimate statement- but attempting to identify those groups based upon skin color is ineffective. On a second more sematic side of the comments made- because of the "jungle" can certainly be made to sound derogatory (or at least be interpreted that way). It is a weighted word- especially with the racial slurs that are out there (ie jungle bunny). In other areas geogrphical descriptions ahve been used to put people down for centuries- the division between the scottish lowlands and highlands- hillbillies in america, ect ect. I wouldn't imagine you would feel comforatble saying to a black guy "your better at sports cause your ancestors came from the jungle" (or at least most people wouldn't) i w can see it not going over so well. 
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#12
12-26-2005, 06:12 PM
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Re: PC-ness has replaced logic & reasoning.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] It's not that your mom's comment about black athletic jungle power is un-PC, it's that it's inaccurate and stupid. And I'm about as un-PC as it gets [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] “Black athletic jungle power” - That is funny. That might be why I cracked up to begin with... but it’s still not racist. So what is your theory on “Why are they so dominate” in certain athletic activities? What is accurate and not stupid on the “why? [/ QUOTE ] Cultural reasons, same reason why white people dominate hockey. [/ QUOTE ] But I believe (possibly out of ignorance, possibly not) that if black people adopted hockey into their culture... they would soon (within, say, 30 years) dominate that sport as well. That is why I’m trying to convey that they are more “athletically gifted” in general... because I’m not talking about specific sports.
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#13
12-26-2005, 06:21 PM
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Re: PC-ness has replaced logic & reasoning.
[ QUOTE ]
The problem begins with lumping ALL black people into the same catagory- ie they all decended from a group living in the jungle, wheras white people decended from northern climates in europe. There are plenty of groups of black people who have spent as much or more time outside of the original "jungle" environment as whites have. What i am trying to say is that distinguishing groups of people based upon skin color is a poor way to make generilizations becuase there is so much variablity within those "groups" themselves, and certain sections will have more in commen with people outside of their group than with other subsets within thier own group. Saying "black people are superior atheletes than whites" is racist as its a broad overgenerilization whitout any specific merit. To say that certain groups of people have a genetic predispostion to excell in certain areas because of the environment that thier ancestors were exposed to is a perfectly legitimate statement- but attempting to identify those groups based upon skin color is ineffective. On a second more sematic side of the comments made- because of the "jungle" can certainly be made to sound derogatory (or at least be interpreted that way). It is a weighted word- especially with the racial slurs that are out there (ie jungle bunny). In other areas geogrphical descriptions ahve been used to put people down for centuries- the division between the scottish lowlands and highlands- hillbillies in america, ect ect. I wouldn't imagine you would feel comforatble saying to a black guy "your better at sports cause your ancestors came from the jungle" (or at least most people wouldn't) i w can see it not going over so well. [/ QUOTE ] Very enlightening. Thank you. That is what I was looking for. “certain groups of people have a genetic predisposition to excel in certain areas because of the environment that their ancestors”. I do think that this is what she meant. Seems unnecessarily wordy to me though.
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#14
12-26-2005, 06:23 PM
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Re: PC-ness has replaced logic & reasoning.
[ QUOTE ]
The list of sports that people of african descent DON'T dominate is much longer than the list of ones that they do. Like swimming (all events and distances), volleyball, soccer, table tennis, lacrosse, hockey, badminton, field hockey, handball, tennis, motor sports, golf, triathalon, etc. The problem is that peolpe believe what they want to, not what the facts state. [/ QUOTE ] I had to laugh when I read this list - how many blacks have even tried out for those 'sports'. Most of those require a lot of money or access to water. Not very popular in the inner city neighborhoods. How many of you who have answered would consider yourself true athletes? I doubt many. I have met very few athletes who would argue with the statement that 'blacks tend to be better athletes than whites'. You have to be judged by your peers so if you are not an athlete you shouldn't respond to this question. I am an athlete and I agree with the statement.
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#15
12-26-2005, 06:36 PM
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Re: PC-ness has replaced logic & reasoning.
[ QUOTE ]
so the statement blacks tend to live in a culture that makes them better runners true? If so it's still sterotypical and racist to many people. Now I understand that many people misuse these facts but that doesn't mean the statement here is wrong. [/ QUOTE ] It's an issue we tackled back in my cultural psychology classes. Usually the tendency for a certain group to perform better in a certain area is due to a greater prevalence of practice of that activity by members of that community. Blacks and athletics was a major issue that we covered. (I apologize for not providing a source, I simply have neither the time or interest) There are occasions where slight genetic differences {and the word "slight" must be emphasized; we are all of the same species) can result in physical results that may alter performance...for example, blacks typically have a slightly higher bone density than whites, which may make them slightly less apt to be champion swimmers...however, the cultural influences are much more conducive to the prevalence of white competitive swimmers. We're talking about averages and small percentages here; I don't think it's rascist, and if it is, I don't care. There's no genetic obstacle preventing a black person from winning the Nobel prize in physics, or preventing a white person from winning a slam dunk contest. However, claiming that blacks developed their athletic prowess from the jungle is unfounded. There's no reason to think that basketball shooting is useful to survival in the African wilderness; it's more likely that the kinds of evolved adaptive traits would include different kinds of metabolic enzymes that are specific to the available foods there.
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#16
12-26-2005, 06:36 PM
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Re: PC-ness has replaced logic & reasoning.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] The problem begins with lumping ALL black people into the same catagory- ie they all decended from a group living in the jungle, wheras white people decended from northern climates in europe. There are plenty of groups of black people who have spent as much or more time outside of the original "jungle" environment as whites have. What i am trying to say is that distinguishing groups of people based upon skin color is a poor way to make generilizations becuase there is so much variablity within those "groups" themselves, and certain sections will have more in commen with people outside of their group than with other subsets within thier own group. Saying "black people are superior atheletes than whites" is racist as its a broad overgenerilization whitout any specific merit. To say that certain groups of people have a genetic predispostion to excell in certain areas because of the environment that thier ancestors were exposed to is a perfectly legitimate statement- but attempting to identify those groups based upon skin color is ineffective. On a second more sematic side of the comments made- because of the "jungle" can certainly be made to sound derogatory (or at least be interpreted that way). It is a weighted word- especially with the racial slurs that are out there (ie jungle bunny). In other areas geogrphical descriptions ahve been used to put people down for centuries- the division between the scottish lowlands and highlands- hillbillies in america, ect ect. I wouldn't imagine you would feel comforatble saying to a black guy "your better at sports cause your ancestors came from the jungle" (or at least most people wouldn't) i w can see it not going over so well. [/ QUOTE ] Very enlightening. Thank you. That is what I was looking for. “certain groups of people have a genetic predisposition to excel in certain areas because of the environment that their ancestors”. I do think that this is what she meant. Seems unnecessarily wordy to me though. [/ QUOTE ] Ok- how about "groups of people are different from other groups of people".
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#17
12-26-2005, 07:19 PM
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Re: PC-ness has replaced logic & reasoning.
[ QUOTE ]
so is the statment blacks on average are faster runners true? If so is that racist? [/ QUOTE ] no, there is no evidence to support the first statement. There is however ample evidence to show that the fastest of blacks descended from West Africans are slightly faster at sprint distances than the fastest runners of other groups. WA descended blacks tend to run slower than average at distances longer than 800m. Likewise a few ethnic groups from Kenya and Ethiopia (East Africa) tend to dominate very long distance races, and do poorly at sprint distances, but this has nothing to do with blacks in general. If you lump all african blacks into one group, then the differences cancel each other out.
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#18
12-26-2005, 07:34 PM
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Re: PC-ness has replaced logic & reasoning.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] so the statement blacks tend to live in a culture that makes them better runners true? If so it's still sterotypical and racist to many people. Now I understand that many people misuse these facts but that doesn't mean the statement here is wrong. [/ QUOTE ] It's an issue we tackled back in my cultural psychology classes. Usually the tendency for a certain group to perform better in a certain area is due to a greater prevalence of practice of that activity by members of that community. Blacks and athletics was a major issue that we covered. (I apologize for not providing a source, I simply have neither the time or interest) There are occasions where slight genetic differences {and the word "slight" must be emphasized; we are all of the same species) can result in physical results that may alter performance...for example, blacks typically have a slightly higher bone density than whites, which may make them slightly less apt to be champion swimmers...however, the cultural influences are much more conducive to the prevalence of white competitive swimmers. We're talking about averages and small percentages here; I don't think it's rascist, and if it is, I don't care. There's no genetic obstacle preventing a black person from winning the Nobel prize in physics, or preventing a white person from winning a slam dunk contest. However, claiming that blacks developed their athletic prowess from the jungle is unfounded. There's no reason to think that basketball shooting is useful to survival in the African wilderness; it's more likely that the kinds of evolved adaptive traits would include different kinds of metabolic enzymes that are specific to the available foods there. [/ QUOTE ] Ok, I used running because that was topic up at discussion but really it all boils down to is that: I don't believe myself to be racist but I have a hard time not grouping people together... And I've found that sterotypes generally tend to be true I'll bet that any random black man like watermelon more then your average person for instants. An Asian is more likely to be a good study... etc. Sure I've met peole who don't fit the criteria for whatever sterotype they tend to have but it's still my default. Maybe I'm suffering from from looking too hard for something (and thus always finding it) but I don't think so and if I ever needed someone to run a message 2 miles out in a battle field because comms are down and I had to chose between 1 white man and 1 black man of equal built, I'm going with the black guy.
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#19
12-26-2005, 07:40 PM
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Re: PC-ness has replaced logic & reasoning.
Dude there isn't much "jungle' in Africa, jungle is usually defined as thick tropical vegetation, must of Africa is either desert (Sahara, Kalahari) or wide-open grasslands usually known as 'bush country'. There are large jungles in Central Africa (Zaire, Uganda), where gorillas live and where the King Kong story is set, which has lead many people to think that this is typical of all of the continent, but it isn't true. Anyway most american 'blacks' are of West African descent and their ancestors aren't from any jungles. blacks of West African descent are faster at sprint distances (less than 400m) than other groups, that is why they currently dominate the NFL at running back, WR and CB positions, but speed over short distances is only one type of athletic ability. Many people think that events like the Triathalon or decathalon are a better measure of overall athletic ability and blacks definitely don't dominate at those events.
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