The downswing continues: looking for leaks.

goofball · #1 05-01-2005, 10:04 PM

Including todays loss, the downswing has reached 280bbs.

Not out of the reealm of possibilitry that it's just luck but I must begin to consider alternatives. Here are a few hands that I didn't think much of but could represent leaks. All comments appreciated. I've been experimenting playing with and without playerview. Today was without and I hadn't noticed anything super unusual outside from the villians. Just the usual number of party 15 donk moves.

Hand 1: Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP1 raises, 1 fold, CO 3-bets, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (12.66 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.33 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, CO folds, Button calls, Hero calls.

River: (11.33 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Button calls, Hero raises, MP1 calls, Button folds.

Final Pot: 16.33 BB

Hand 2: Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP2 raises, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (12.66 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (8.33 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, BB folds, UTG calls, MP2 folds.

River: (10.33 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 12.33 BB

Hand 3: Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $25.
UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, 5 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold, UTG calls.

Flop: (8.66 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (5.83 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, UTG+1 folds, Hero 3-bets, UTG caps, Hero calls.

River: (13.83 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 15.83 BB

and one more.

hand 4: Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP1 raises, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, 3 folds, MP1 calls.

Flop: (7.66 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP1 bets, Hero raises, MP1 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.83 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP1 bets, Hero calls.

River: (8.83 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.83 BB

Klepton · #2 05-01-2005, 10:32 PM

hand 1 i'm betting out that flop and folding to a 3-bet, if raised i just call down, then cr that river when i suck out [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

hand 2 standard, looks like you lost to TT or 99

hand 3 i fold preflop, but if i had played it i just call the turn and slowdown for showdown

hand 4 I cap the flop and then call down is he still bets into me

1800GAMBLER · #3 05-01-2005, 10:51 PM

Hand 1. Hm. On the turn you can only call if you'll win/improve 2bbs in an average of 12bb pot. Will you find an player (MP1) dumb enough to lead into the field without a pocket pair _AND_ a button who isn't overcall a big pair, 1 in 7 times? I don't think so.

Hand 2. Is v. v. v. standard.

Hand 3. It sure looks like he shouldn't have two pair or most sets on the turn, so say you're looking at a loose limp with t9s or 55 in early or aggro plays with TK etc or QJs KQ for straight flush draws that on the flop were keeping preflop raiser in and now got aggro enough on the turn to 3 bet you, i don't know but that seems like an extremely rare player to go from passive to so aggro. Given that it seems you're more likely vs 55 and T9 and average 1.5 outs, so fold to the cap.

edit: FWIW, a lot of people will point out the above advice just paid 2bbs and folded when i could have showdowned for that, however i still like it, seems like i see TK way too much to call down here, hell, even 77 on a free-showdown-oh-[censored]-he-3-bet-me-[censored]-it-i'm-showing-down-anyway-play.

Hand 4. You got the flop call right but you forgot the turn raise. Aggro players with JJ (not an awful play) etc are way more likely than clever players who raised 88 preflop then lead-to-3-bet.

34TheTruth34 · #4 05-02-2005, 12:47 AM

hand 1:

I'm with you until the turn. 15-1 closing the action is clearly enough to call on the flop. But with MP1 betting into three players again and then getting a caller, I'd lay it down.

hand 2:

I'd almost always just call here preflop, which would totally change the way the hand would play out. With the two previous posters responding saying that the way you played it was standard, I guess I have to reevaluate how I play my medium pairs pre flop...

hand 3:

I'd never play this preflop, but since you did, I really like the aggression on the turn. The only problem is that you didn't do anything with the information you got. I think you have an easy laydown to the turn 4-bet.

hand 4:

I'd just call the flop three-bet and raise the turn. If you get three-bet on the turn, I'd go into calldown mode. Note that you have the A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in your hand. Not that that makes tons of difference, but that makes it slightly more likely that he's betting a made hand because he can't have A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

surfdoc · #5 05-02-2005, 01:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2. Is v. v. v. standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this preflop 3 bet really standard?

mcozzy1 · #6 05-02-2005, 01:14 AM

Sorry about the downswing, man. That sucks. I had a downswing in March that was almost identical and in April I had my best month ever. I'm sure most of it is due to crappy cards.

1. Fold the turn.

2. I usually just call pre-flop with 9s or lower. Being on the button though, I like that aggressive play. I'll have to try it out.

3. Fold pre-flop. The reason being that you're most certainly up against a better hand. UTG+1 could have AK, or AT which could put you in a world of hurt. Obviously, you're way behind big PPs. What can you beat? You can hope he has QQ or AQ and a king flops, but you have to play it tentatively since you're out of position and have a relatively weak hand. You'll lose more than you win calling this pre-flop.

4. I like calling the flop 3 bet (assuming that your AA is good) so that you can get a little extra with a raise on the turn.

Jdanz · #7 05-02-2005, 01:45 AM

if you're going to fold to the fourbet what does raising accomplish? Another bet is going in on the river regardless, so if you're going to pay another bet you might as well see if you have the best hand. That is unless you think you're good a large enough percentage of the time to bet the river for value and not just very often putting in an extra bet vs a better hand that slowed down to a turn three bet.

lil feller · #8 05-02-2005, 02:29 AM

Hand 1:

Anybody telling you to fold this turn is crazy. This is about the best non-set board you can hope for w/ 55 in a raised pot. You should, however, lead the flop and put some pressure on the PFR to define his hand. If you get raised, call and lead the turn. This hand has great showdown potential on this kind of board, but playing it so passively makes it correct for both players to chase their over cards, and never gives you accurate information about the hands you are against.

Hand 2:

The PF 3 bet seems to be popular, but I think it could go either way. Really depends on the texture of the game. If c/c is normal, i'd just call and play for good flop/set value. If you think you can ISO, which means getting a UTG limper to muck, 3 bet away.

Given that you 3 bet post flop looks ok. The river bet is very player dependant, but I don't see a lot of worse hands calling here.

Hand 3:
This is an auto-fold PF. given that you saw the flop, you're flop bet is solid, as is the turn bet. Depending on the player I probably fold when raised on the turn, or call and fold unimproved. The turn raise could be a slowplayed set, or 99 looking for a cheap showdow. The ambiguity would certainly cause me to NOT 3bet. After you get capped on the turn, you've made the pot so big you almost have to call the river, but this hand was grossly overplayed from start to finish.

Hand 4:

Very read/player dependant. In my live game I fold this turn 100% of the time, but on the party 15 its different. with little or no info just calling down is probably ok. I might cap the flop though.

lf

GoblinMason (Craig) · #9 05-02-2005, 04:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The river bet is very player dependant, but I don't see a lot of worse hands calling here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any random 2/3/7 could call along with 44-66. If you're not betting this river in hand 2 I think you are missing a lot of value bets.

Also how standard is the pf 3bet?

-Craig

ghettorat · #10 05-02-2005, 09:38 AM

Maybe its just my rock garden tendencies, but from these hands I would say you are getting involved with marginal/bad hands in bad position. Hand 1. 55 in the BB 3-handed for a raise is fine, but not to call 2 cold. Hand 3. KTx in SB facing a UTG limp and UTG+1 raise, you're getting 4-1 for your call and you have to figure there is a good chance your K is out kicked. Throw it away. Hand 4. Fold preflop, they never win [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Just my thoughts...