McEvoy's article "Betting The Wrong Amount..."

TheDrone · #1 04-21-2005, 05:34 PM

I just read McEvoy's recent CardPlayer article Betting the Wrong Amount in No-Limit Hold'em Tournaments and I find some of it surprising given what I have read from the more experienced posters on this forum. For example, MLG recently said that he rarely makes pot-sized bets, or something to that effect.

Here are two quotes from the article that you can chew on:
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Anytime we see players overbet the pot (or underbet the pot, for that matter), their play indicates to us that they probably are inexperienced players.

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Depending on the size of the pot, I like to make a pot-sized bet. I don’t want to overbet, because occasionally I might run into a bigger hand. But, I want to make it costly enough that the marginal hands will leave. If you were to always bet the size of the pot when you thought you had the best hand on the flop and wanted to protect it, and you did no other type of betting, you probably would be right about 90 percent of the time.

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I don't believe that I have taken these quotes out of context. Anyone care to comment?

Awesemo · #2 04-21-2005, 05:38 PM

I read similar advice in his book Championship PL and NL Hold'em. This was a really poor book. I would guess that it's rarely correct to bet the size of the pot.

sloth469 · #3 04-21-2005, 05:39 PM

He's most likely reffering to deep stack, live tourneys. This seems to be a recurring problem with authors concidering the stakes they play and not concidering the small stakes usually found in online tourneys.

2005 · #4 04-21-2005, 05:49 PM

Well, I rarely say anything nice about Tom for a couple reasons. First, I don't think he's a very good player. I see him make major mistakes constantly. Second, He's a total a-hole. I'm not going to buck that trend. Who are generally considered the best tournament players in the world today? John Juanda and Daniel Negreanu, hands down. You will rarely see them make a pot sized bet. Tom is a weak-tight, ABC, super predictable player. He, IMHO is not a winning tournament player, take his advice with a grain of salt.

Gavin

TheDrone · #5 04-21-2005, 05:55 PM

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He's most likely reffering to deep stack, live tourneys.

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I wondered about this as well. If this is the case, it seems like a huge oversight to not specify it in the article. Especially considering the huge percentage of people who read this article do not play live deep stack tournaments.

TheDrone · #6 04-21-2005, 06:03 PM

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He, IMHO is not a winning tournament player, take his advice with a grain of salt.

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I don't feel comfortable taking his advice, period. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

2005 · #7 04-21-2005, 06:05 PM

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He, IMHO is not a winning tournament player, take his advice with a grain of salt.

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I don't feel comfortable taking his advice, period. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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This is good advice [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

betgo · #8 04-21-2005, 06:32 PM

I thought the column was OK, but basically beginner's material and not helpful to a good player. I don't think he meant to always bet pot, but to generally bet near the size of the pot. The examples he gave were of bad players making huge overbets where they were risking too much to gain too little and of limit players making tiny bets that did not accomplish anything useful.

The Cloutier/McEvoy books do seem to suggest an ABC approach. You need ATs or better to raise from middle position. You need KK or better to reraise. If you raise with certain hands and are reraised, you have to fold. I have heard McEvoy accused of playing ABC, perhaps taking an accountant's approach. In one of his books he mentions that he won his WSOP title partly by playing tight when there was a lot of wild action at the final table.

Double Eagle · #9 04-21-2005, 06:35 PM

I think this particular piece of advice is tied directly to Tom's weak-tight style. He is playing many fewer pots than the other players referred to in this thread and because of that must go at the pots he does play much harder. As Gavin mentioned this makes him pretty easy to play against and as a result he is pretty close to dead money in the major events. One would do well not only to not follow his advice regarding tourney play but in many cases do the exact opposite....

SoBeDude · #10 04-21-2005, 06:38 PM

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I read similar advice in his book Championship PL and NL Hold'em. This was a really poor book. I would guess that it's rarely correct to bet the size of the pot.

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I think there is a place for a pot-sized bet and I use it often.

I like the bet when I flop top pair, say, T's with AT in my hand, but there is a flush draw out there. I have a solid hand, but its very vulnerable. If the flop is T-high, there is most likely a straight draw out there as well.

In this spot, a pot-sized bet ruins the odds your opponents are getting to continue with hands such as flush and straight draws, but you're likely to still get action from hands like 2nd pair or top pair, worse kicker.

-Scott