QQ: Still lost in these situations

hizo1 · #1 07-31-2005, 08:27 PM

Been playing .5/1 on and off for the past 8 months and I still feel really lost when this happens.

Pokerroom skin .5/1 10 handed. Reads so far are UTG+1 is LP donk and Button is a weak tight donk, no stats because my crappy laptop won't run pokertracker and four tables at once.

(sorry I couldn't get pokerroom to work on the converter for some reason).

Hero is UTG with Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, all fold to Button who calls, blinds fold.

Flop (7.5 SB)
K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

what's your line from here and why?

here's what I did:

Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, Button calls

Turn (5 BB)

4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, Button calls.

River (8BBs)

7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hero...???

value bets here? C/C? C/F? why???

thanks
hizo

xGoreDudex · #2 07-31-2005, 08:34 PM

Here's what I'd do...

Pre-Flop: Raise (well, duh [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )
Flop: Raise, two callers...that sucks (we can assume atleast one is on a flush)
Turn: Okay, phew no diamonds. Let's fire and see if somebody drops, okay [censored] they didn't.
River: 7, okay, my queens are looking good, I'd raise, if somebody lingerd along with a King, well that sucks, but with no aggression shown on any streets, I'd bet this out.

Dave G. · #3 07-31-2005, 08:36 PM

If your opponents are passive enough postflop, I sometimes check/fold the turn here. I figure if they do have a K they will bet, and if they don't have a K they won't. However, I would never take this line against an unknown, I need to believe that they're pretty passive before I would do this.

These situations are always tricky. With position it's not so bad since you know most of the time you can get a free showdown, but out of position really sucks.

I think you played it fine. On the river, since you've come this far, I would check/call. You might get a free showdown and I don't think they're going anywhere. I would expect UTG+1 to flip over a K here. You may be able to save a bet this way, but call it if you have to. If it comes back 2 to you, obviously you can dump it.

Dave G. · #4 07-31-2005, 08:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
we can asssume atleast one is on a flush

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not an assumption that anyone should be making with only two other people seeing the flop. Flush draws are not all THAT common. It's much more likely that noone has a flush draw here.

xGoreDudex · #5 07-31-2005, 08:44 PM

So what the hell are they staying with? hopes and dreams?
I'm not being a dick, just trying to learn something here lol.
With two people on the flop with us, why can't we assume they dont have a flush draw? their betting sequence shows the following...

PreFlop: nothing too strong unless their slow playing KK,AA,
Flop: If they were slow playing with that hand, they'd want the flush draw out,
Turn/River: They'd Raise for value.

I can't see your typical donk not betting somewhere if they held the K, altho I've seen it before, i think its much more likely we may be up against a J, or flush draw rather than the overcard.

Please rip me up [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Dave G. · #6 07-31-2005, 08:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So what the hell are they staying with? hopes and dreams?

[/ QUOTE ]

They could be staying with anything. Come on, most of these people aren't even thinking about how they play, and don't know how to think about how they play even if they try. Until they do anything else but call, I'm giving them a very wide range of holdings including bottom pair, as much as a naked backdoor flush / straight draw, and so forth.

Some people will even play ace high this way. I had some dude at the 1/2 yesterday who called me down with ace high at least 10 times! I gave him a note - _VALUE BET LOTS_.

There's no secret conspiracy here. These people don't know what the hell they're doing. That's why they're in the hand. If this were the Bellagio 400/800, maybe I'd think differently.

hizo1 · #7 07-31-2005, 08:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
River: 7, okay, my queens are looking good, I'd raise, if somebody lingerd along with a King, well that sucks, but with no aggression shown on any streets, I'd bet this out.

[/ QUOTE ]

My opponents are weak and one of them is loose, do you think that the number of times I'm ahead and getting called is greater than the number of times I'm behind in order to justify a value bet? Or do I only need to be ahead 1/3 times to justify a value bet?

The fact that they cold called and then hung in there to the river makes one K likely I think. They haven't shown agression yet because they're weak. Or maybe I'm being paranoid.

Thanks for the replies.

KingOtter · #8 07-31-2005, 09:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So what the hell are they staying with? hopes and dreams?
I'm not being a dick, just trying to learn something here lol.
With two people on the flop with us, why can't we assume they dont have a flush draw? their betting sequence shows the following...

PreFlop: nothing too strong unless their slow playing KK,AA,
Flop: If they were slow playing with that hand, they'd want the flush draw out,
Turn/River: They'd Raise for value.

I can't see your typical donk not betting somewhere if they held the K, altho I've seen it before, i think its much more likely we may be up against a J, or flush draw rather than the overcard.

Please rip me up [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

A Jack... an A3, perhaps... maybe 77 and they don't think you have a pair.

It is hard to tell. Today I've been called down to the river by Ax off-suit about 3 times (and the river, was, of course, an A killing off a nice JJ and QQ as I recall, forget the 3rd hand). One fellow had no pair... just an A was good enough for him.

KO

TALLBrad · #9 07-31-2005, 09:39 PM

I tend to Bet. Many times you've got the Ax crowd hanging around hoping to hit. The bet will usually drops one of them out. It's a risk to the Passive K, but you were going to call down a single bet anyway.

If raised back to you I typically call unless I have a very strong read of the situation. What I've found is if you do fold to the raise you tend to get raised more on scary boards and put in difficult decisions.

Angrymoog · #10 07-31-2005, 09:49 PM

I think if youre prepared to call a bet on the river, you should bet instead.

When you check, yu allow your opponent to dictate which hands the money will go in with. As passive opponents they are likely to check all the hands you beat, and maybe a weak king, but bet every hand that beats you.

Bet the river. If it's raised thats a tough choice. Obviously youre beaten, but for table image purposes you should maybe call the raise. Otherwise you might give up an entire pot later to a bluff when someone remembers you folded to a river raise.