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  #81  
Old 12-11-2005, 11:28 AM
tylerdurden tylerdurden is offline
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Default Re: To libertarians / Rand clones

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, paying someone $100 to dig a ditch and fill it back up increases GDP. Just giving someone the $100 for no work would not increase GDP. In this comparison, if you think that paying the guy is better for the economy than giving the money away, you're actually subscribing to the labor theory of value.

Wait, did I just say that giving the $100 away would be better for the economy? Yes. In that case, the laborer has the $100, plus he's still available to do someting actually useful.

[/ QUOTE ]

BTW, note that for the purposes of this discussion, I'm ignoring the crime of using taxation to fund this wild goose chase.
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  #82  
Old 12-11-2005, 12:24 PM
Borodog Borodog is offline
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Default Re: To libertarians / Rand clones

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Except that those computers, while they are depreciating, do work that people actually value.

[/ QUOTE ]

And in determining the raw value of economic production, where does the "what the people actually value" factor in? I don't believe it does.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which only shows that the GDP of hole-digging and war-making is irrelevent to the health of the economy.

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I sure was pissed off when I bought a Gateway. It was a total piece of junk and brought no value to me. My consumption (C) of $2000 still factored into GDP, however. Just like the government spending (G) on 100,000 airplanes factored into GDP.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're still missing the point. If instead the government had merely taken your $2000 and bought $2000 woth of airplane, is the economy better off? Have you even "increased GDP" ? If the government prints enough money to buy its 100,000 airplanes, and the manufacturers of those airplanes bid up the price of computers to where you can't afford one and don't buy one, has the economy been "helped" ?

[ QUOTE ]
On a related note, many technology innovations and efficiencies came about from World War II as well, which also factor greatly into the GDP growth rate. And some would say such things as the entire airline industry came into existence because of World War II.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funding a massive war to reap technological benefits has to be the most inefficient R&D program possible.
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  #83  
Old 12-11-2005, 12:27 PM
Borodog Borodog is offline
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Default Re: To libertarians / Rand clones

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is it +EV?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd imagine to the freedom loving people of Western Europe, the Jews, the Gypsies, among others, yes, it was +EV. Long term economically speaking.

[/ QUOTE ]

See my previous comments about defensive warmaking.

[ QUOTE ]
And clearly to the United States it was +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Show me the calculation.
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  #84  
Old 12-11-2005, 12:31 PM
Borodog Borodog is offline
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Default Re: To libertarians / Rand clones

[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]So, just to clarify, after a war, the country is in worse economic shape?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Given the general term "economic shape" this really isn't a matter of opinion. You know the dates of major US wars. Can you not simply look at a US GDP (the ultimate "general shape" indicator) trend chart and look at the dates following our wars and come to your own conclusion?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I did this. What do you think my results were?

[/ QUOTE ]

Meaningless, in the absence of a better understanding of economics.
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  #85  
Old 12-11-2005, 12:36 PM
Borodog Borodog is offline
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Default Re: To libertarians / Rand clones

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, just to clarify, after a war, the country is in worse economic shape?

[/ QUOTE ]

In worse shape *than it would have been in, had there been no war*.

Of course the country could be in better shape after a war, since war is not the only factor influencing the "economic shape" of a country. But, if there had been no war, it ought to be *in further "better shape" yet still*.

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
This is a very important distinction. It is also (probably) not measurable (like so many things in economics).

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Luckily it doesn't have to be measured to be shown to be true. Like every economic truth, it can be logically deduced.
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  #86  
Old 12-11-2005, 12:51 PM
Borodog Borodog is offline
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Default Re: Homer lunch

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FDR ... did incalculable damage to this country.

[/ QUOTE ]

The evidence of ignorance spreading among the masses of Americans is right here, in this thread.

How much have you guys read about FDR and that era, aside from the texts of those already agreeing with your viewpoint ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've read much about FDR. It is widely known, accepted, agreed upon, among economists that his policies were disastrous, catastrophic, evil in practice and effect if not intent, and that they brought enormous hardship, misery, suffering, and injustice.

FDR believed that the Depression was caused by falling prices, so he ordered Federal agents throughout the land to shoot ranchers' livestock and leave them rotting in the sun to drive up prices. I'll say it again. While people stood around in soup lines and starving because they couldn't afford to eat, FDR intentionally drove up the price of meat by having Federal agents decimate America's livestock population. And that's just ONE of THOUSANDS of bizarre anti-economic programs and policies that seem custom designed to destroy the economy which he put into place (many of which we still suffer from to this very day). If the [censored] hadn't finally died we'd still be in his Wonderful Depression. The guy was EVIL. And this guy is practically DEIFIED by the left and in government schools. It's revolting.

Yes, the level of ignorance among the masses in America is shocking.

And how much have YOU read about the man and his policies that doesn't agree with what YOU already believe?

A tiny fraction of The Truth about FDR.
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  #87  
Old 12-11-2005, 01:11 PM
natedogg natedogg is offline
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Default Re: Homer lunch

Don't forget that he was responsible for the japanese internment. The man had no qualms whatsoever about violating civil rights. He was scum.

natedogg
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  #88  
Old 12-11-2005, 01:13 PM
natedogg natedogg is offline
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Default Re: Homer lunch

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FDR ... did incalculable damage to this country.

[/ QUOTE ]

The evidence of ignorance spreading among the masses of Americans is right here, in this thread.

How much have you guys read about FDR and that era, aside from the texts of those already agreeing with your viewpoint ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Since nearly any economist can tell you all about why FDR's policies were detrimental, and anyone with a rudimentary understanding of our constition can see that his internment of the japanese was a flagrant violation, I'm having a hard time thinking of something good he did. Nearly all of the FDR "new deal" reforms have been undone, precisely because of how bad they were. One of the few that remains is Social Security.

So please, Cyrus, enlighten us "uneducated americans". Tell us about how great FDR was.

natedogg
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  #89  
Old 12-11-2005, 01:20 PM
Kurn, son of Mogh Kurn, son of Mogh is offline
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Default Re: To libertarians / Rand clones

Actually, the New Deal failed miserably to bring the US out of the Depression. WWII brought us out of the Depression.
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  #90  
Old 12-11-2005, 01:45 PM
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Default Re: To libertarians / Rand clones

[ QUOTE ]
Show me the calculation.


[/ QUOTE ]

First, the US did not simply print off several hundred billion dollars in cash to pay for the war; at the time, it issued bonds. Second, there is a question at the end of this post, please answer it.

Primary economic indicators:

GDP:
1939: $92B
1945: $223B

Personal Consumption Expenditures:
1939: $67.2B
1945: $119.8B

Gross Private Investment:
1939: $9.3B
1950: $54.1B

Unemployment:
1932 - 23.6%
1933 - 24.9%
1934 - 21.7%
1935 - 20.1%
1936 - 16.9%
1937 - 14.3%
1938 - 19.0%
1939 - 17.2%
1940 - 15.0%
1941 - 9.9%
1942 - 4.7%
1943 - 1.9%
1944 - 1.2%
1945 - 1.9%
(and infact many economists would claim there was negative unemployment, given both the understatement of unemployment and the large amount of labor shortages in many of our industries at the time)

Total Employee Compensation:
1939: $48.1B
1945: $123.3B

Corporate Profits:
1933: -$0.3B
1939: +$6.2B
1945: +$20.1B

Inflation:
1939: -1.2%
1945: +2.3%
Inflation then remained below +2.0 well into the 1960s.

What happened between 1939 and 1945 that made our economy so ridiculously robust?
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