Poker Pros - Do they really make it?

For a while I have been thinking about poker professionals - those who choose to spend their life playing poker for a living. Having seen the industry and the way poker operates, I have begun to think that the number of people who actually make money off playing poker is actually very small.

Keep in mind, in saying this I am EXCLUDING ancillary activities related to poker. I am not talking about royalties from writing poker books, fees for promoting poker sites, etc. I am purely refering to actually playing poker, and poker only. I greatly respect many of the people who have managed to make a name for themselves in this realm. For example, Tom McEvoy, T.J. Cloutier, and Dan Harrington have done excellent jobs cornering the poker book market (along with David Sklansky and Mason Malmuth).

Are there really many people out there that make a good living in the long term by only playing poker? And when I say "good living" I don't mean survival, or $30,000 or even $50,000 a year. I mean something more in the six figure range on a consistent basis from year to year (if you are a professional poker player, $50,000 is actually a lot less than a job paying the same amount because of health care costs). Obviously, today is a better poker environment than ever before. Winning the World Series of Poker Main Event surely gives somebody enough money to live on for years if they choose to use the money wisely and not gamble it away (something that many winners probably cannot do). However, it seems as though, regardless of how talented someone may be, that it would be extremely difficult for a professional to make enough on poker alone to be a winner in the long term.

This is enhanced by the fact that many of the top professionals cannot stop themselves from constantly gambling their winnings (I'd recommend One of A Kind about Stu Ungar as a great way to get an insight into this mentality). Sure, someone may have a good year here and there, but how many professionals make enough money every single year to live comfortably? My guess is that it is not a very high number.

What do you think?

[Alex/Mugaaz]

In a word, yes. How many people do so, how easy it is, and what it takes are consantly blown u - but yes.

[lighterjobs]

I don't think most of the limit cash game player have four or five houses in LA and las vegas and drive $100k cars, but I think a lot of them live comfortably.

[bernie]

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And when I say "good living" I don't mean survival, or $30,000 or even $50,000 a year. I mean something more in the six figure range on a consistent basis from year to year

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Do you know what the small percentage of people who make 6 figures consistently in any job is? It's pretty small.

Depending on your expenses and monthly nut, $30-50k a year can be a good living.

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Winning the World Series of Poker Main Event surely gives somebody enough money to live on for years if they choose to use the money wisely and not gamble it away

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Someone wins the world series today, or even makes the final table, should be set for life if they use the money right.

For more perspective, I'd suggest reading "millionaire next door". Along with looking at the average personal income in most cities.

Edit: Ed Miller also has some great articles about this.

b

[r3vbr]

I estimate that there are over 1000 people that make six figures a year (over 100,000 a year) out of poker simply by playing online.

Top pros like doyle brunson and ted forrest all make over a million a year. Forrest made lots of several-million-dollar years from what I've read, 12M in one year alone.

So yeah I think they do pretty well.

[mshalen]

$30-50 a good living. This has to be a joke right? I don't know where you live but I spend $30,000 just on elementary school tuition for my two kids.

I get so frustrated when I see dollar amounts talked about in these forums. Most of these post are from people who have no idea. This isn't a slam at the poster just general frustration that comes out every once in a while.

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Do you know what the small percentage of people who make 6 figures consistently in any job is? It's pretty small.

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It is small, but more than a hanful. As of 2000, there were 12,972,529 households in America with family income higher than $100,000. Granted, the number of individuals making $100,000 is smaller, since that's family income, but it's still a decent amount. It works out to be about 12-13% of households.

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Depending on your expenses and monthly nut, $30-50k a year can be a good living.

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I agree, that depending on where you live, that this can make for a decent living. But as I said, I am not asking about poker pros who survive, or do alright. I am curious about the people who really make it and do a lot better for themselves than they would otherwise.

For example, almost anybody with a college degree can get a job that pays better than 30,000 if they live in a metropolitan area. And oftentimes, one can get a job that pays even better with only partial college or high school employment. For example, I believe a New York City police officer starts around $40,000 a year, but there is room for improvement, plus they receive pretty good benefits. Therefore, as I said, that $40,000 is worth a LOT more than $40,000 as a poker pro, since you have to pay health expenses, and must take care of retirement yourself.

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$30-50 a good living. This has to be a joke right? I don't know where you live but I spend $30,000 just on elementary school tuition for my two kids.

I get so frustrated when I see dollar amounts talked about in these forums. Most of these post are from people who have no idea. This isn't a slam at the poster just general frustration that comes out every once in a while.

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Anyone who spends that kind of money on tuition has no idea of reality. The odds are that you either have so much money that $30,000 for tuition is not a significant expense, or you are sacrificing to enable you to do that. In the first case, you are in no position to comprehend how the "commoners" live. In the second case, you have a serious lack of common sense. Either would explain disparaging remarks about people who think that $50k is a decent living.

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Anyone who spends that kind of money on tuition has no idea of reality. The odds are that you either have so much money that $30,000 for tuition is not a significant expense, or you are sacrificing to enable you to do that. In the first case, you are in no position to comprehend how the "commoners" live. In the second case, you have a serious lack of common sense. Either would explain disparaging remarks about people who think that $50k is a decent living.

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You criticize others for having no common sense, but apparently have not put much thought into your own post. First, you have no idea how many children the poster has in elementary school. Second, it is possible that the school that the poster is paying for will provide his (or her) children with a much better education than the other schools that his children could attend.

People make decisions for a variety of reasons, and some make sacrifices for their children. My parents went into debt to put me through one of the best colleges in the country, even though I got almost a full scholarship to another school that was definitely good, but not the same caliber. And given where I am right now, that choice has definitely had a major impact on my life. No doubt about that.

You need to keep in mind that where somebody lives makes a tremendous difference too. $50,000 in rural Iowa is probably enough to live comfortably. $50,000 in the New York City area or Los Angeles is worth a lot less. Additionally, sometimes people talk about their lives as a vaccuum. Fine, let's say you are 25 years old and making $50,000 a year paying poker. Do you think that will cut it someday when you have a family, and children? Probably not, considering the high cost of insuring your entire family for their health costs. And as far as marriage, there are not scores of wealthy women waiting around to marry poker pros who make $50,000 a year.

[david050173]

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This has to be a joke right? I don't know where you live but I spend $30,000 just on elementary school tuition for my <font color="red"> two </font>kids.


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You criticize others for having no common sense, but apparently have not put much thought into your own post. First, you have no idea how many children the poster has in elementary school.


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How much do you want to bet that Jack thinks he has 2 kids? College is different than grade school. It will affect your future income a lot more. Not to mention the student, not the parent should be taking out the loans.

Average family income in the US is under 45k. Spending 30k on grade school is not the normal and means the OP has a quite a bit of income. It is great that he spends it on his kids education but don't make the mistake of taking that a needed expense which most people with familes pay.