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  #1  
Old 12-08-2005, 06:45 PM
UATrewqaz UATrewqaz is offline
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Default Interesting 5 card draw question....

I have no experience at 5 card draw other than knowing the rules, but here is my question.

I get dealt a pat
A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Obviously I like my hand alot, my decision is whether to draw 2 cards or 1, which is better? Drawing 2 gives you a better chance of hitting quads but does it give you an equal, better, or worse chance of hitting a boat?

Also for deception purposes do you draw differnet numbers?
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  #2  
Old 12-08-2005, 06:47 PM
Notorious G.O.B. Notorious G.O.B. is offline
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Default Re: Interesting 5 card draw question....

probability wise drawing two is slightly better, I usually keep the four for strategic purposes, though.
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  #3  
Old 12-08-2005, 07:45 PM
Tom Bayes Tom Bayes is offline
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Default Re: Interesting 5 card draw question....

"Falsecarding", or drawing in a deceptive manner, is a key skill in 5CD. Other common situations are drawing 2 to a pair (usually keeping an ace as a kicker) and standing pat with two pair (or worse). I also usually draw one to pat quads because I want to improve my kicker [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

You are right in that you will improve your chance of improving your hand by drawing 2 rather than 1. According to SuperSystem, it is 10.75 to 1 to improve three of a kind with a kicker to a better hand (boat or quads), while it is 8.65 to 1 to improve three of a kind w/o a kicker to a full house or better. I don't remember and don't feel like grinding it out, but I think your chance of filling up is less wehn drawing 2 but that the improved chance of making quads more than compensates.

We "falsecard" in draw for many reasons. Sometimes we do it to get action after the draw, sometimes we do it to "freeze" the opponent and hopefully get a free showdown, sometimes it is because we plan on bluffing and hope he'll throw his hand away.

If you plan on "falsecarding", you need to mix it up. I've played against lots of people who always hide trips by drawing 1 and they only draw 2 when keeping a kicker with a pair.

I'm not sure if you are playing live or online. If you are playing limit ring games online (at Paradise or PokerRoom), you should read this:
Online Draw Article

I've heard Mike Wiesenberg is working on an article for pot-limit draw cash games, which is played at 24h or PokerRoom.
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  #4  
Old 12-08-2005, 08:43 PM
Biggle10 Biggle10 is offline
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Default Re: Interesting 5 card draw question....

Personally, I've had success with only drawing 1 or 3. I only draw 2 when hiding my hand is not important. Probably not optimal, but it works for me. Meta game considerations: My hands frequently look alike.
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  #5  
Old 12-09-2005, 03:31 AM
stripsqueez stripsqueez is offline
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Default Re: Interesting 5 card draw question....

drawing one to 3 of a kind only halves the odds of making quads - it has no effect on your odds of making a full house - the card you keep with 3 of a kind is the same random non quad card you get first when you draw 2 and make a full house

i draw 1 nearly all the time because i am masking 2 pair and drawing hands - i draw 2 when there is no deceptive value or i think i might need quads

whilst keeping a kicker with a pair isnt an awful play i usually only do it with position against a rabid bluffer who pays attention but not enough to see that i never draw 2 to 3 of a kind - usually therefore my kicker is a lower rank than my pair

stripsqueez - chickenhawk
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  #6  
Old 12-15-2005, 09:18 AM
daveymck daveymck is offline
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Default Re: Interesting 5 card draw question....

Dumb beginners question but why are kickers important?
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  #7  
Old 12-15-2005, 11:29 AM
Tom Bayes Tom Bayes is offline
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Default Re: Interesting 5 card draw question....

[ QUOTE ]
Dumb beginners question but why are kickers important?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd only keep a kicker (usually an ace) with a pair for two reasons. The first would be if you were absolutely sure your opponent had two lower pair and you are trying to make aces up (or better) to beat him. The second is for deception, when you are trying to represent trips. If you are going to do this, then you need to bet like you have trips (i.e. no limping) and you need to sometimes draw 2 when you really are dealt 3 of a kind. There are lots of players that often limp in & keep the ace kicker and draw 2 to a pair but always try to hide their 3 of a kinds by drawing one. When these guys bet after the draw, they almost always have aces up or better and it's easy to make the proper play (raise or fold). If the guy changes it up on you, then you are confused postdraw when he draws 2 and you might make a mistake and either call a bet when beat or miss a value bet when ahead or fold to a bluff.

You want to be the guy forcing tough decisions, not making the tough decisions. In online cash games, if there are a few tricky players at the table, it's usually best to just find another table. Unfortunately, tournament guys like me don't get to run from tough players.
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  #8  
Old 12-15-2005, 07:15 PM
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Default Re: Interesting 5 card draw question....

Drawing two greatly improves your odds of improving over one... The reason you probably draw one is that drawing two is pretty obvious since you should never hold a kicker with a pair (except aces with a king to beat what you're sure your opponent has another pair of aces).
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  #9  
Old 12-16-2005, 10:18 PM
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Default Re: Interesting 5 card draw question....

Drawing 2 increases your odds by almost 1 draw to 1 out, or 2%. The purpose of holding a kicker with a pair is not to stop someone who bluffs too much from bluffing, but rather to stop someone who bluffs too little from bluffing at all. Someone who bluffs to much should be encouraged, and then called. That is a basic principle, you want ppl to bluff at an improper frequency. That is why standing pat with AA against a drawing hand is only useful against ppl who dont bluff much, it lets you fold when they bet. Against someone who bluffs too much drawing three and calling his bet is proper(see TOP). As to the origonal question ... drawing 1 and drawing 2 should be a part of your game. It basically comes down to who your opponent is. Usually I like to do both at the same table, against the same ppl, drawing 1 more than 2 ... it is good to mix things up, and if you are going to be pretending to have trips by drawing 2, than actually having trips once in a while is a good thing. You will often find that ppl just dont believe you when you draw 2, especially if you are in position.
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  #10  
Old 12-18-2005, 05:06 PM
DOMIT DOMIT is offline
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Default Re: Interesting 5 card draw question....

I'm surprised that no one has stated the classic "it depends"... [unless you're assuming it's inferred.. but I can't help myself.. I'm posting anyway [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] ]

The reason that I would say this is that it could depend on the action pre and post.

- Say someone caps it with you pre and he stands pat (BTW: AAAxx is NOT a "pat" hand .. a "pat" hand is one utilizing all five cards). Against this pat hand, I would definitely draw 2 to try to better my hand.

- How about if your opponent is before you and draws 1? If we're HU's [head's-up], I might still just draw 1, thinking that he would only call me with two-pair HU. If you know that your opponent is one to draw to a str and/or flush even HU, then I'd draw 2.

- Then there is the case of multiple opponents and/or the fact that pre, you 3-bet or capped. If you've 3-bet or capped the action pre.. then I'd say go ahead and draw 2; they pretty much know that you probably have trips (unless you routinely 3-bet with 2 pair, then false-carding can have additional benefit of hiding your hand).
Same thing against multiple opponents: draw 2 (in my oppinion). As soon as one person calls, he opens the door for, at least the blind, to have odds to draw to a str/flush.

My two cents, anyway.
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